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DON'T VOTE REFORM - NEVER REFORM (29th Jun 2024  17:33:06) Dear Community, As we approach the upcoming election, it is crucial to consider the implications of supporting Reform UK. Their policy agenda often lacks the comprehensive and inclusive approach needed to address the diverse needs of our society. The party's focus on radical changes to essential systems, like the NHS and immigration policies, could undermine the stability and fairness many of us rely on. Reform UK's proposals frequently emphasize short-term, populist measures instead of long-term, sustainable solutions, which can exacerbate social and economic inequalities. Moreover, their stance on climate change and environmental regulations is less progressive, potentially hindering effective action against this global crisis. By voting for Reform UK, we might inadvertently endorse policies that do not align with our community's values of social justice, inclusivity, and environmental responsibility. Let's choose a path that fosters a cohesive, equitable, and prosperous future for everyone.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Ian (29th Jun 2024  20:33:47) Lost me the moment you spouted inclusivity, diversity and environment. Donā€™t like Reform but airy fairy Lib Dem nonsense just as bad!

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Resident (29th Jun 2024  20:49:40) Luckily we live in a free country where we are allowed to make our own judgements and choices

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - NEVER REFORM (30th Jun 2024  00:10:32) Dear Ian, Inclusivity, Diversity and the Environment are all important voting factors. Letā€™s not forget same-sex marriage has only been legal for the past 12 years, conversion therapy is still legal despite it being described as Torture by the UN. Hate crime in the UK is on the rise across the board. The environment is also important, we can no longer swim at our beaches because of the amount of sewage being discharged into the water ways. Portsmouth are doing some great things such as the international port going green and southampton port having shore power. Dear Resident, I agree what amazing human rights we have thanks to the EHCR something that both Reform and the Tories want rid off! Iā€™m happy that you agree with how important the EHCR is.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Richard (30th Jun 2024  09:13:08) The Reform Party emphasizes fiscal responsibility, government accountability, and tax reform. They advocate for balanced budgets, reduced national debt, and simpler tax codes. The party supports electoral reforms for fairer representation, economic growth through free-market principles, and strong national security policies. Additionally, they push for efficiency in education and health care systems, often favoring private sector solutions. They have very sensible policies and I will absolutely be voting for them. Regards, Someone who voted Conservative for the last 50 years.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Ian (30th Jun 2024  09:20:25) Not important to me and millions of others. That includes same sex marriage, no interest at all to the vast majority of the population. This country is in a complete mess and those nutty fringe issues you spout distract our politicians from the real issues that need sorting. Our infrastructure is falling apart, our law and order collapsing, our foreign policy a mess and our border policy an utter shambles. Our education and health services can no longer cope, these are what need fixing, not your airy fairy utopian woke agenda

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - AR (30th Jun 2024  09:37:14) The audacity of the OP is quite frankly astounding. Preaching to people about who they should or shouldn't vote for is in my mind a step too far. Quite frankly it is none of their business. The words " cohesive, equitable, and prosperous " just made laugh, the poster wants us to know they are highly intelligent and should believe and do as they would do. Things in this country need a radical shake up as we are heading for disaster and not some mamby pandy ethereal thinking. ( see OP, I too can choose some posh wording. )

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Grape (30th Jun 2024  10:13:53) This is a Liphook local forum, so if we leave alone the national argument for a moment we should bear in mind that: The Torries, Labour and LibDems form a coalition of the ruling class, together with big national institutions and international players. They have their own ā€œprogressiveā€ big agendas, they alienate and patronise the ā€˜little person on the streetā€™ / ā€˜working peopleā€™ mere voters. Part of their indoctrination include: War on white people (routinely abuse and discriminate the white race), war on drivers (increased costs, bureaucracy, decreased road maintenance), and war on rural people (lacking investment, rural crime and lawlessness, irrelevant legislation, war on farming). The Greens, although talking ā€œprogressiveā€ - have turn extreme vandals (eco-warriors), pro-terrorists (Hamas sympathisers) and child abusers (conversion therapy). Liphook people are still predominately white, rely on private transport and endure other challenges of rural life. We know Labour will win the elections. But if more voters support Reform they will send a clear message to that ruling class: Listen to the neglected voters! This might just nudge future decisions to be just a tad less disastrous. Vote Reform for Liphook.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - NEVER REFORM (30th Jun 2024  10:49:52) Ian, It's clear that you have strong opinions on what you believe to be the pressing issues facing the country. However, dismissing same-sex marriage and similar topics as "nutty fringe issues" ignores the reality that these matters are deeply significant to many people. For millions, equal rights and social justice are not distractions but integral to the fabric of a fair society. Regarding the Reform Party, their simplistic and reactionary approach often fails to offer practical solutions to our complex problems. While they might highlight issues with infrastructure and law and order, their policies frequently lack depth and nuance, potentially exacerbating the very problems they claim to solve. Balancing diverse priorities is essential for any government, and dismissing certain concerns as irrelevant doesnā€™t contribute to constructive dialogue. Instead, we should aim to address all significant issues comprehensively.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - J (30th Jun 2024  10:59:49) The fundamental issue is that a lot of the rhetoric that Farage and Reform UK spouts is at best stretching the facts and at worst demonstrably lies. fullfact.org/immigration/reform-uk-immigration-projections fullfact.org/immigration/reform-immigration-since-1066 fullfact.org/live/2024/jun/nigel-farage-asylum-seekers-smartphones fullfact.org/election-2024/reformuk-manifesto etc. etc. Fortunately it's unlikely they'll get in in our area so if you vote for them here it'll probably just reduce the votes for the tories, so fill your boots.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Oldie (30th Jun 2024  11:41:55) The economy is the best in Europe. People have more money than they ever have had. Ok the conservatives have made a cockup with their stupid selection of leaders thatā€™s down to the wets that want to take us back into the EU terrible mistake would cripple us . If we let labour in with a large majority we are doomed we will go back decades unions will run riot open borders taxā€™s sky high pensioners on the bread line been there before. The only way is to vote conservative and get them to toe the line like the Thatched years she dragged the country back to life by its boot laces we can do it again because we are in a better place than then . The conservatives need to get their ass in to gear the alternative will be a disaster.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (30th Jun 2024  14:09:43) The UK is NOT the best economy in Europe, we are practically finished, not one of the parties dare reveal the real challenges the face the UK, Taxes will need to go up.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Oldie (30th Jun 2024  17:38:20) Sam we are the best France is in a mess Germany the same. We are now benefiting from coming out of the EU itā€™s just kicking in we should forge ahead now if the Labour lot donā€™t cock it up . Thatā€™s why we need a very strong opposition if they get in itā€™s not a forgone conclusion yet people are waking up to the Labour fibs and the old ones remember last time and it will be worse this time.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (30th Jun 2024  19:15:55) Utter nonsense, we are behind the eurozone, way smaller than Germany GDP and our growth forecast is well behind nearly everyone. Where on earth are you getting your facts? The daily mail I presume? We have a lot of catching up to do, Liz Truss knocked us back 2 years and Brexit is actually holding us back. Time to run another vote on Europe I think, get back in and improve our economy.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - AR (30th Jun 2024  19:19:12) Sam Why do you think the EU is turning their backs on the left. They have destroyed everything that was good about our own countries. It was an experiment believing it would prevent war after the second world war. We should have all been free to be who we all were. Our own money, our own laws. They are now waking up to see it failed.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Ian (30th Jun 2024  20:34:05) Oldie, you are in denial!!!! I donā€™t want to go back into the EU which is going to implode in itā€™s current form, but the reality is that Brexit has inevitably had a negative impact on the UK economy which is going to need more than naive nationalism sentiment to fix. This country has been broken by a broken political system and too much pandering to minority interests. Government needs to start governing for the majority.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Oldie (30th Jun 2024  21:28:57) Ian I believe the vote to take us out of the EU was by a majority thatā€™s why it happened correct me if Iā€™m wrong. And I think if it was to take place again it would be the same result.The EU is broken and should be abandoned.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Ian (30th Jun 2024  22:12:11) @oldie. The majority that voted! Not the majority of the population! However, that is in the past, the carnage that is the UK economy is the here and now and very likely the foreseeable future.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Oldie (30th Jun 2024  22:34:03) Ian your splitting hairs like most of the remain voters they canā€™t respect the decision. You will have to except the decision after the election you will have four years to moan about it . Or love it when youā€™re taxes go through the roof.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Ian (30th Jun 2024  22:50:44) Oldie, I was not and am not a remainer, for me there were bigger issues than the economy and I do ACCEPT the outcome of what was a flawed referendum. However I was picking you up on your incorrect assessment of the UK economy!

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (1st Jul 2024  00:31:20) The country is broken, to suggest otherwise is deluded, itā€™s on life support and each time a minor positive pulse is seen the deluded jump around claiming itā€™s a rampant success. Services top to bottom across the country are under massive pressure and or just being abandoned and non one has a spare penny left. The current state of the country is very different than just a few years ago, all politicians wonā€™t reveal or discuss the truths behind it. Accepted the rest of the world is hardly doing that well but I can assure you they are doing better than us, especially given the liz truss set back. Only Growth or Taxes gets us out of it now, we canā€™t spend our way out. Some harsh truths need to addressed. And throughout it all, still no one single definable positive from the referendum. We vote for these clowns every 4 years, we can surely vote to return to an economic arrangement with our neighbours. Even Marie Le Pen has uttered the words ā€œwe do not want to leave the EUā€ as mental as she is sheā€™s witnessed the utter crash crash itā€™s been for us. The EU might well, lose a member or grow a member, and or develop into something different but itā€™s not going anywhere. Believe me nearly every country in the EU is doing a lot better than here as they can freely trade and offset with each other. We on the other hand.. are out in the cold, now just a 3rd party has been.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - ALWAYS REFORM (1st Jul 2024  09:00:27) Reform are the new conservative party and they have my vote.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Helen (1st Jul 2024  10:08:57) voteforpolicies.org.uk I can recommend taking this survey

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Grape (1st Jul 2024  10:38:39) @ Helen, Interesting the survey fails to mention, gives no options, to address issues of: patriotism, rise of anti-British, Islamic terrorism, Islamic expansion, sectarianism, antisemitism, and traditional British values. I guess it's a true representation on what's on offer for us, and what is not. Easy to see why so many feel politically homeless, disillusioned, neglected, tabooed. It also gives an insight as for how come the so-called "Far" Right is rising in the UK and in the EU.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Was Undecided Now Decided (1st Jul 2024  12:19:36) Thankfully, people like the OP actually HELP me decide to vote Reform.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Was Undecided Now Decided (1st Jul 2024  13:05:40) @Grape - it doesn't mention the items you list because they are not contained within party manifestos. That's not the application's fault. As you will be aware, liberal's and left-leaning activists have pushed so far left into woke-progressive that centre/conservative's are being purposely labelled as far right. The vast majority of people support 'popular' politics and see through the communist (Left) attacks on conservatives (democracy). As Paris demonstrated overnight, when the communist (Left) woke progressives don't get their way they engage in destruction and violence.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - DEFINITELY REFORM (1st Jul 2024  15:49:34) Returning to the original post, this is exactly why I am voting Reform. Radical changes are exactly what are needed to essential systems that no longer work. Simply throwing more taxpayers money at them won't solve the problems. Switching management from Conservative to Labour won't fix things either. Labour will mess things up, just like theyā€™ve done before, and then we'll end up with another Conservative government, which will mess things up again, just like they have now. The cycle repeats every few years. Both parties are useless. It's time for a different approach.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - NEVER REFORM (1st Jul 2024  16:11:33) Grape, can you list the British Values? Iā€™m curious if you actually know them. While Iā€™m not voting for Labour, they promise some radical changes, such as nationalising public transport, lowering the voting age to 16 (if they can work and marry at 16, they should be able to vote), and supporting the NHS. They also aim to tackle climate change more aggressively and reduce economic inequality through progressive taxation. How many of you have private health insurance? If Reform comes to power, youā€™ll need it. They plan to privatise the NHS and implement an American-style healthcare system where an EpiPen costs $700 and an ambulance ride costs $2000, just to get to the hospital. This could lead to unaffordable healthcare for many and increased financial strain on families. Do you like Russia? Well, Farage does! Do you support the illegal invasion of Ukraine, which has displaced thousands, killed thousands, and left thousands homeless? Farageā€™s stance on Russia raises serious questions about his commitment to democratic values and human rights. Do you like Trump? Yes, the one convicted of fraud and still facing numerous other charges? Nigel does. Trumpā€™s policies and actions have been divisive and controversial, undermining democratic institutions and promoting misinformation. How long will abortion remain legal before it gets banned under such influence? The potential rollback of reproductive rights is a serious concern. Additionally, consider the broader implications of these political stances on international relations, social cohesion, and the future of democracy in our country. Itā€™s crucial to stay informed and critically evaluate the platforms and promises of all political parties.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Richard (1st Jul 2024  17:24:46) Did the online questionnaire and was surprised to see that Reform Party was aligned with my views. They have the most sensible policies and absolutely will be getting my vote in Thursday.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Grape (1st Jul 2024  18:02:41) In response to what was posted above 1st Jul 2024 - 16:11:33. You're right, by now it's very hard to call a good list of British values. You look at the news, you look outside, bills, communities etc, and you can't recognise what those value once were. They have been relentlessly, and worse - systematically - by the ruling class, woke and the blob for a couple of decades now. Have a look at past records and memories, perhaps our Heritage Centre, might jog your memory. As for the rest of the posting regarding Farage, the NHS, Ukraine war, Trump etc: You're very wrong. But not your fault, these are the mainstream claims, BBC and its ilk, disinformation constant feeds that have you fooled.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Susie (1st Jul 2024  18:54:57) @ Richard, I too have just completed the survey and got the same result as you. So i will also be supporting Reform. Recommend everyone takes the survey,its quick and informative.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - D (1st Jul 2024  19:03:36) I will be voting for who I feel best represents my interests as a white, heterosexual working class Englishman. (Are we still allowed to use words such as "white" and "heterosexual"?)

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - NEVER REFORM (1st Jul 2024  19:56:41) Grape aka 1st Jul 2024 - 18:02:41 Iā€™m not sure why you decided to direct the message by date and time but thatā€™s up to you. Let me help you out the following are our British Values: āš«ļø Democracy āš«ļø Rule of Law āš«ļø Respect and Tolerance āš«ļø Individual liberty Those are the British Values that represent Britain. Donā€™t believe me do your research. I donā€™t think Grape you represent those values, given your previous comments you definitely donā€™t align with Respect and Tolerance and Individual liberty. As for the rest of my reply which you just is false without any justification letā€™s go over it: NHS - Labour will deliver an extra two million operations, scans and appointments. Reform will abolish NHS England check out their website thatā€™s what it says, Farage is also a supporter of a US based health service Russia-Ukraine and Putin Russia has illegally invaded Ukraine which has been condemned by NATO, The UK government and other first world countries. Farage has said the West has provoked the illegal invasion of Ukraine! Farage's comments from 2014, where he told GQ magazine Mr Putin was the world leader he most admired. The Trumpet In October 2020, Farage spoke at a Trump rally in Arizona during his unsuccessful re-election campaign. He called him the ā€œmost resilient and brave personā€ he had ever met Farage bet Ā£10,000 that Trump would win the 2020 US election, so sure he was of Trumpā€™s political prowess. Not to mention that Farage dismissed the events of January 6, calling it a ā€œGatheringā€, itā€™s clear that Farage doesnā€™t uphold the British Value of Democracy and Rule of law. So, I think iā€™ve explained my justification, now itā€™s your turn.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Re (1st Jul 2024  20:21:49) Iā€™m voting whatā€™s best for our lovely country. Looking at history and who has done best and who has left us in a terrible state. No contest vote conservative .

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - D (2nd Jul 2024  08:35:46) I agree, Re. But when you look at the current cabinet I don't feel they represent the best interests of the United Kingdom. The Conservative party who did so much for the country over the years isn't this lot.

Re: cohesive, equitable, and prosperous - AR (2nd Jul 2024  09:08:52) So lets convert NEVER REFORM's words (straight from the MSM ) to the truth. The strain on the NHS is mismanagement of funds, wasted medical items such as crutches and items never reused. Treating people that do not pay any taxes here in this country. Free at the point of service does not mean it is a handout.It has to be paid for. Russia, I have no qualms with, as the USA and the West have been encroaching further and further East. The Dombass area has Russian people and the war since 2014 has been trying to protect them. We deposed their leader and installed one that cowtied to the West. The USA built Gain of Function labs in the Ukraine just like Wuhan Institute of Virology in China. If this is not taunting Putin , what is ? Trump. Oh yes the January 6th insurrection. That was the FBI, you know, the one that had Kennedy shot over the Cuban war, that instigated the vilolence. The ringleader exposed as an FBI agent. The Shaman that supposedly started it was actually brought in and escorted around the White House.It was a set up. Most believe that Biden never beat Trump as the FBI did not want him back in, it was rigged. Hunter Bidens laptop was a Russian lie to stop Biden getting in. No, the laptop existed alright, with material of porn and drug taking and young girls. The job that Hunter had in the Ukraine was all apreamble to the Ukraine war, which made the Biden family extremely rich. As for 16 yearolds getting a vote, Labour would love that. We are all Labour voters at that age, but wisdom comes with age. Except in the case ofNEVER REFORM who sticks to the narrative they are spoonfed by those that don't want you see the truth. The MSM 's criminality in this is staggering. So many things are coming to the surface now and the next few years I believe going to be shocking for some.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Grape (2nd Jul 2024  09:28:56) @AR, As you might have noticed I am ignoring "NEVER REFORM" contributor on this chat. Sadly this poster is a victim of the current mainstream poor education, poor journalism, and worse. It's not my job to educate the ignorant. Some of them are hopelessly un-educatable, others do have some hope. Even if they know their history (not many do), they fail to learn the lessons from the past, and current affairs. The only hope left is that they will come to realise their folly in the future when their ideas implode, or explode back in their hypocritic woke, ignorant faces.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - D (2nd Jul 2024  11:07:14) Sixteen year olds allowed to vote? When they don't leave school until they are eighteen? I don't think so.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Re (2nd Jul 2024  11:29:30) Yes D agree this lot are having a shock so perhaps they will listen to the people of this country and start to pull their socks up. The people of this country keep telling them so it must sink in sometime. Trouble is the alternative doesnā€™t bear thinking about so much worse if labour get in with a large majority god help this country it will go back decades.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - NEVER REFORM (2nd Jul 2024  14:16:06) Well, this has been interesting. Iā€™ll disregard the conspiracy theorists and clarify that this isnā€™t directed at Grape, who continues to ignore previous posts despite claiming to support British values without actually understanding them or knowing what they are. As for the other ludicrous responses, Iā€™ll ignore those too. Regarding 16-year-olds getting the vote: At 16, you can leave school, get a job, get a house, and get married. You can even join the British Army. This means you can pay taxes, contribute to national insurance, and serve your countryā€”all before being able to vote in a General Election. A common argument against lowering the voting age is that young people lack knowledge or experience. However, knowledge or experience isnā€™t a requirement to vote. Even someone with a very low IQ is entitled to their democratic right to vote as can be seen on here by a small handful. Evidence from several countries, including Norway, shows that voter turnout increases when 16-17 year-olds are allowed to vote, and they can be up to four times more likely to vote than older age groups. Itā€™s amusing that some people oppose giving under-18s the right to vote because they fear they might vote Labour. Denying them the vote simply because they might not align with your views is contrary to the principles of democracy.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Re (2nd Jul 2024  15:12:10) Disagree that votes should be given to sixteen year olds . Until you have lived a bit and seen how things work and had a few knocks in life and of course looked at history which is something that young people donā€™t seem to do your not equipped to make decisions on that scale. So I think voting age should be raised to 21 when most people have got sensible.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Ian (2nd Jul 2024  15:15:19) Across the western world left wingers want to give the vote to children and in some cases foreign migrants. This is not about democracy but manipulating democracy in their favour. Next they will want to deny the elderly the vote for the same reasons.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - J (2nd Jul 2024  17:06:39) Someone once told me they replace ā€œpolitical correctness" (which has evolved to ā€œwokeā€) with ā€œbeing nice to peopleā€. Really puts it into perspective when someone then says ā€œI don't like people who are being nice to peopleā€. Yes there is more to it than that, but it's a start. Be kind to others, try to empathise with their problems rather than not caring or only caring about yourself. If we all were a bit more caring we'd have a better society.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Grape (2nd Jul 2024  18:24:43) @J Yes, you're right, being nice, even-handed and tolerant sounds great. Tell that to the woke crowds who disrupts, intimidate, coerce, alienate and vandalises the old West. Democracy and voting age: The pure original democracy was based on granting the vote to the experienced, educated and those who have proven their worth in contributing for society. It was indeed a rather exclusive exercise. Modern democracy instead, is a free-for-all, an abused system that's taking society backwards by placing the selfish me-me-me above the good of the whole. Socialists, Woke and Marxists claim they are for the good of the many but they overlook the essential principles of what was a healthier functional democracy. Often the protection of vulnerable minorities come not from their own voting power but from a rigorous democratic process which necessitates selecting the few who have better skills. No doubt, both inclusive and exclusive democracies are corruptible. But the wholesale disintegration we see round our communities, society and civilization nowadays is partially due to excessively inclusive legislative process.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - J (2nd Jul 2024  19:54:03) What about the suffragettes? They disrupted, intimidated, coerced, alienated and vandalised. You don't think they were wrong do you? Now, I'm not saying that all of the above methods are appropriate and I don't agree with all of the tactics for the modern age, but if people actually listened and weren't affronted by the idea of being kind to others (particularly those marginalised and/or less fortunate) and giving them rights that they should probably have then it wouldn't be necessary. Times change, I have no idea what the "old West" means but there is a lot of it that is bigoted that needs to go. A lot of people against the current status quo and the "old networks" are just coming at it from different sides.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (2nd Jul 2024  21:55:53) Given the vast amount of things being aged 16 allows you to do itā€™s only correct they are allowed to vote. The future belongs to youth, they have to grow up in this world, itā€™s only right they get to decide at aged 16. The future does not belong to the old. If your retired you shouldnā€™t be imposing this sort of offence to both the youth and the future of the world, you will be long gone before it could even reach the stage of it going wrong. Put you feet up

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - D (2nd Jul 2024  23:18:38) Sam, 16 year olds are schoolchildren. You might as well have a voting age of 5. The future belongs to the young? Sounds like a line from Logan's Run where everyone was executed at the age of 30. You seem to be suggesting that for the future of the young (whatever you think young is) the old, who have slogged their guts out all their lives while your mother was wiping your arse, should sacrifice their today.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - I (3rd Jul 2024  08:24:28) Most 16 year olds are terribly immature nowadays. Letā€™s face it, the only reason that Labour want to give them the vote is that at that age, most are left wing (basically get something for nothing)

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - D (3rd Jul 2024  08:37:08) We can't really lower the voting age to sixteen when the school leaving age has been raised to eighteen. If anything the voting age should be raised to twenty one. How can eighteen year old schoolchildren possibly be expected to vote, it will only cause yet another mental illness.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Mammal (3rd Jul 2024  09:37:29) Let's look at the potential pros and cons: Pros: Russia - De-escalation of hostilities with Russia and a retreat from an eventual nuclear event where the only survivors are those who landed us in this mess in the first place (as they scuttle off to their exclusive shelters). The way most people speak or just shrug off the issue, one assumes that a quick or lingering death for you and everyone you know is no big deal. That's fine, but it's a bit tough on the kids. Migration - No, migration isn't inherently good. Nor is it inherently bad. Nor is it easily stopped. But unmanageable immigration is detrimental, chaotic and undoubtedly fuels social tension and the rise of nasty political movements. Utilities - Full or part nationalisation is sensible. Obviously, putting Britain's vital services in the hands of sociopathic profiteers and foreign investors is a criminal act of self-harm and treachery. Brexit - The EU is at odds with national sentiments, if not interests (which cannot simply be erased or homogenised), is horribly expensive, excessively bureaucratic, opaque and inflexible. Its true colours manifested when it battered Greece into submitting to its onerous economic demands. A kick up the arse for the establishment - They assume the gravy train can continue forever and are inured to the needs of working people. The ones who serve them in eateries, fix their toilets, their cars, clean their houses, mow their lawns, dig ditches, lay pipework and cables, pack and deliver their food, nurse and teach their brats, put out fires, rescue from wrecked cars etc. etc. etc. All the kinds of work for which they have little experience or stomach. Cons: America - Abandoning the EU for closer ties with the degenerate forces across the Atlantic is hardly restoring sovereignty. By closer ties, it means tightening the dog leash until it chokes. Xenophobia and racism and bigotry and a horrifying explosion of isms and phobias and general boorishness - Farage, although not himself, may well be the usher who smiles and beckons in the scum of the earth. I think most reasonable British people sense this is a distinct possibility: unleashing the worst in human nature; letting the mob have a go with impunity or worse -- putting them in a uniform. Environment - Doesn't give a monkey's. Jeremy Clarkson will become minister for pollution. Pigging around in gas-guzzlers will become a matter of national pride. Even if you don't believe in climate change as a result of human actions, it still means increased pollution and health issues and a dependency on fossil fuels leading to more conflict over exhaustible resources.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - nowvotingreform (3rd Jul 2024  10:01:51) Thanks to this thread i took the quiz and i will now be voting reform

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Joe (3rd Jul 2024  10:45:54) Also I think the marriage age has been raised as well to 18 and anyway 16 year olds always needed their parents permission to get married except in Scotland hence the need for Gretna green.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Re (3rd Jul 2024  13:38:06) The Labour Party are so desperate for votes to stay in power if they get in itā€™s not a forgone conclusion yet . They will get children to vote because they can brain wash them easily. And with the sheep that worship the union barons they will change everything to their advantage bit like Putins Regime.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (3rd Jul 2024  17:38:05) Voting age of 18 means some are 21-22 by the time they get their first opportunity to vote given the election only comes around once every 4-5 years. Amazed so many people think they are making an informed decision in the first place, "oh am an adult this is me making this decision" when no one person on here old or new is doing that... the key is the word "informed" there are a billion things that inform all of us, be is the daily mail, your social class, your mates, your pension, the way maggie handled the argentines, social media etc etc etc The whole thing is a circus, were all on here influencing each other, responding to millions of individual stimuli about this or that and mostly driven by lies from the parties involved or the media, we spend far too much time seeking to be RIGHT about everything and proving others are WRONG when actually we should be concentrating on what might be EFFECTIVE. Hence you should be seeking a point that might cut away from right/wrong or influence. For example = The incumbent team have been in power for 14 years, did they do good?...... No..... well then get rid of them

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Oldie (3rd Jul 2024  18:54:56) Sam you missed out having wisdom with age ie been there done that the young donā€™t have that . The young people live for today they donā€™t think to look at history what has happened on the past what previous governments have done yes this lot have been in for 14 years as you keep saying but what is the alternative labour having a field day and talking us back years. If they cosy up to Brussels again we will no longer be a nation in are own right. We are an island country we have survived other countries trying to invade us we have survived the EU trying to govern us. We are a nation that likes to stand on our own feet good or bad . If you want to live in a country like Russia or the continent then this country is not for you. We have our traditions as others have said a nation of shopkeepers but when the chips are down look out . Itā€™s time we all stood back and realise what is at stake and vote for our country like we did in the referendum the country saw sense .

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (4th Jul 2024  16:58:16) Well Oldie now your bringing in all that sovereignty & independence stuff with the EU am happy to suggest your misconceived, as the EU was about CO-OPERATION and nothing to do with sovereignty & independence. But lets stick to sovereignty & independence... N Ireland, Scotland and Wales would love some of that, I presume your all for it letting those people have their own countries back given you seem to cherish it so much? dissolve the UK and go back to purely England ?

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Oldie (4th Jul 2024  18:48:13) No problem Sam let them have independence but donā€™t expect us to finance them. And donā€™t expect to sit in our parliament. Thought Wales and Scotland had their own parliaments anyway Ireland have just opened up theirs again . So let them go it alone no money from us see how that develops. Donā€™t think they have any Kings or Queens well donā€™t know about wales . Sam you must spend %90 of your time on this forum do you work any time or are you on benefits or more likely at school as most of your posts are so juvenile.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (4th Jul 2024  19:49:21) Itā€™s 90% not %90 Englands broke anyway, Scotland will take the oil and charge you for storing your submarines, once each stop pouring tax money into England it will go under, and the Republic of Ireland economy is per capita far better anyway so it will go from getting its land in the north back, Scotland will rejoin the EU as they never voted to leave so I doubt they want any finance, they certainly donā€™t want the royal German family either

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Sam (4th Jul 2024  19:56:20) Just to add.. I spend about 5 mins a week on this site, i can both think and type pretty fast, am a fan of responding to idiots, and no never claimed a penny in benefits in my life, worked hard, own my homes and do my bit, but if I see bull**** I always call it.

Re: DON'T VOTE REFORM - Oldie (4th Jul 2024  21:10:42) Well I take my hat of to you Sam you reply to all these threats in 5 minutes a week fantastic. Worked hard own your own home yes a great success and all while the conservatives were in power says something.

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