Reply to THIS thread
Start a NEW Talkback Thread
Talkback Home

Gaza-Israel conflict - John (11th Oct 2023 - 15:09:57) The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a highly complex and sensitive issue, and the characterization of Israelis and Palestinians as aggressors or victims can vary depending on one's perspective and the specific context. The conflict has deep historical roots, and both sides have experienced suffering and loss. It's essential to approach the topic with empathy and an understanding that there are multiple narratives and perspectives involved. So my question is why does the BBC, CNN, Sky and all of the major news channels continually try and make the Israeli’s appear to be the victims in this conflict. Along with the news channels the US and UK government stand together with Israel and choose to ignore the indiscriminate killing carried out by the state of Israel on the Palestinians.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - dave (11th Oct 2023 - 15:32:47) Babies being beheaded!!!! In this instance Israel is the victim.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Helen (11th Oct 2023 - 16:18:13) Hi Dave, You should take the time to understand who the invaders are in this conflict and who the victims are. Please look at a map of the Palestine state since 1946 to the present day. The Israeli state has simply carried out the largest land grab in recent history with the support of the UK and US governments backing. Palestinian people forced from their home and land and made to live as refugees in their own country, many of these then through having no employment opportunity and poverty became radicalised. It’s sad to see that Imperial Britain is still alive and blindly supported. It’s sad that people are dying on both sides of this conflict, let’s stop simply focusing on the death and misery of one side. The Israeli military are indiscriminately killing civilians in Gaza with no real condemnation.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Pete (11th Oct 2023 - 16:40:11) I have been pondering the same. In fairness the BBC are trying to be a bit more balanced but are in a precarious place especially with the rabid Sella Benjamin on their backs.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - dave (11th Oct 2023 - 17:08:00) Helen, ignoring your patronising and arrogant opening statement, (actually I am very critical of the Israeli state and in no way a supporter of their policies), I cannot believe you do not think the beheaded and dismembered innocent Israeli women and children are not victims! Presumably you did not think the casualties of Enniskillen were victims either? Evil is evil and in this case, regardless of anything, what the Hamas terrorists have done is evil

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Sue (11th Oct 2023 - 17:13:35) Oh Helen, Helen, Helen! Such infantile ignorance of history... Again with the "innocent victimised" Palestinians... And this perpetual easy "excuse" of 'having become radicalised'... In order for one to become radicalised, they first have to be radicalise-able, or in a simple word: Trouble! Such a low bar to begin this thread which will now doubt fast deteriorate until all are disgustedly fed-up with it. Actually, the last sentence could describe Talkback as well as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Moderator knows it and allows this international politics thread on our local community forum in a bid to save Talkback from going deadly silence.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Sam (11th Oct 2023 - 21:46:32) Another fine mess left by the British….

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Joe (12th Oct 2023 - 07:29:44) I agree with you Sam it was a real mess but the idea in 1948 did have approval from the whole UN except that Israel then claimed and then invaded far more territory than was first allotted. You could go back even further than that to the European crusaders invading in 1098. The history of the region has always been violent. The Romans invaded the territory in pre Christian times and after Christianity there, the Muslims took over.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Joshua (12th Oct 2023 - 08:01:11) Just a point of note: the tragic story of the babies has indeed been redacted by the journalist who made it. There’ll surely be sad situations on both sides, but we should be aware that in the fog of war things can get very muddied and news spreads very fast on social media. Not that I am morally equivocating between the sides to be clear. It’s always right for a colonised people to fight back against their coloniser.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Pete (12th Oct 2023 - 08:05:33) Oh Sue, Sue , Sue. Great way to start a post if you were going for the most patronising first line ever. I would imagine even you might be radicalised if you were living in an area that is constantly shrinking in size due to Israeli land grabs and being subjected to ghetto like conditions. I see the Israeli defence minister has said he wants to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth, fine if that was the only aim but lets be honest what he actually means is to wipe out Palestinians full stop. As always most wars are either about religion or use religion as an excuse. I do wonder how much you know about the history of this region as you seem to get off the subject pretty quickly to then have a go at the talkback moderator. If you don't like the thread go elsewhere. All John and Helen have asked for is more balanced coverage, I wonder why that upsets you so much.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Dave (12th Oct 2023 - 09:46:55) Prior to this terrorist attack by Hamas I would say the UK media has been pretty well balanced over the last decade or so with much leaning towards the Palestinian plight. However, lets not forget in 1948 the Arab nations collectively declared they wanted to drive the Jewish people into the sea. Both sides are equally intolerant of each other, the ignorant self righteous do favour the underdog though. The problems in the Levant stem from Anglo/Franco foreign policy in the 1920's and 1930's. Following the logic expressed by some here, radicalised Jews and Palestinians would be justified in launching terrorist attacks on both UK and France?

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Realist (12th Oct 2023 - 10:33:14) It's very, very sad for both people's, Israeli and the Palestinians. But we need to be careful what we say. Not here thankfully, but in London anti-Jewish attacks have increased fourfold, from people driving around waving Palestinian flags, to shouting out of car windows even spitting at people for being Jewish to blockading the Israeli embassy with protests. If you are Jewish with the terrible things that have happened many times in the past, these are dangerous things, to see happening you will understand how worrying this all is. Hamas are a proscribed terrorist group even here in Britain, Israel is a nation, the nation of Israel, our allies and good allies too. Hamas are not a nation but an armed group who have refused to withdraw their threats to annihilate Israel, they attacked innocent people and gunned down young people attending a rave in the Negev, like our kids do, a lot of them were supporters of peace. How would we respond? Hamas does not equate to Palestinians who are victims too. Gaza will probably not be destroyed, will probably still exist after this is over, their water is given to them by Israel, their power, energy, food, they employ them, would we do that? How can you have a place like that existing in your doorstep and sleep at night if it doesn't even recognise your sovereignty? This is not about ordinary Palestinians most of whom are probably as sick of it as us and would like peace too. I'm not saying there are not two sides, but we shouldn't try to make equivalence between a terrorist attack and a military response. Israel doesn't target civilians, only known Hamas areas in response to terrorist attacks. Peace would be the best way, but Israel had tried to let Hamas govern itself and stayed out of it (they evacuated Gaza years ago an gave it to the Palestinians, not Hamas it was Fatah then)even despite the rocket fire and occasional outrages. Obviously now Hamas went too far and no one expects they will survive this, maybe they will, but how could they be left there, a few hundred yards away from Israeli towns and settlements, kibbutzs and farms? I think as usual the world will manage to stop it before it gets to finish that, but noone can blame Israel for its response now, it's their 9/11. Let's not forget the prisoners taken and are now in Gaza. You must realise noone could put up with this. Best thing would be for the Palestinians to get rid of Hamas and replace it with a more moderate government that will ensure peace for Gaza and Israel.Noone wants to.live in war. I pray for peace for everyone in Israel, both Jewish and Palestinians who want peace. There is no enmity towards peace loving Palestinians I pray for them too in what is to come.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (12th Oct 2023 - 14:14:26) One point-in response to someone saying that Isreal doesn't target civilians-they knowingly kill large numbers of civilians by air attacks which amounts to the same thing.The modern expression is "collateral damage". Some people would call it war crimes.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Marco (12th Oct 2023 - 15:10:26) It makes me mad in this day and age people fighting and dying over religious beliefs. Anyone with any ounce of common sense knows it is a whole lot of mumbo jumbo whatever religion we are talking about. Rather than banning religious hatred the world should ban religion and it would be a much more peaceful place.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Penny Williamson (12th Oct 2023 - 17:08:42) I would like to be clear at the beginning of my post that I condemn all acts of brutality and am devasted by the suffering of all innocent victims in this terrible conflict. The Middle East has a long, violent and complicated history. The concept of a National Jewish Home in Palestine was approved by the League of Nations Council on July 24, 1922 and on May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. (One of my ‘A’ levels was History of the Middle East.) Unfortunately Israel’s military rule disrupts every aspect of daily life in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and has done for many years. It continues to affect whether, when and how Palestinians can travel to work or school, go abroad, visit their relatives, earn a living, attend a protest, access their farmland, or even access electricity or a clean water supply. It means daily humiliation, fear and oppression. People’s entire lives are effectively held hostage by Israel. Entire Palestinian communities have been displaced by these settlements. Their homes and livelihoods have been destroyed, they’ve had restrictions enforced on their movement, access to their own water, land and other natural resources. The communities have also been violently attacked by the Israeli military and settlers. This behaviour breeds discontent and bitterness which leads to radicalisation and revenge. History repeats itself and human beings never learn. I am not justifying the recent actions of Hamas which were indescribably horrific but I am saying there are two sides. What Israel is doing now and apparently continuing to do I think will be classed as a “War Crime”. For the record I am half Jewish on my mother’s side. “Any man`s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind” John Donne.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (12th Oct 2023 - 19:58:16) Penny-agree entirely

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - mammal (13th Oct 2023 - 05:51:24) This may come as a shock to the unconditional supporters of Israel on here, and possibly even to Palestinian sympathisers, but Hamas only exists in its current form because of Israel's dubious support. It suited Israel policy once upon a time to empower Hamas: 'With its takeover of Gaza after the 1967 war with Egypt, Israel hunted down secular Palestinian Liberation Organization factions, but dropped the previous Egyptian rulers' harsh restrictions against Islamic activists.[19] In fact, Israel for many years tolerated and at times encouraged Islamic activists and groups as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the PLO and its dominant faction, Fatah.' Wiki Secondly: please don't be one of those useful idiots who can't wait to parrot rancid propaganda, such as suggesting that Hamas decapitates babies. It's about as plausible as the enduring anti-Semitic myth of Blood Libel. It's wildly inflammatory.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Peter Rowan (13th Oct 2023 - 16:12:55) Penny Williamson Yes, John Donne, passed away nearly 400 years ago, and the world has not listened.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Sam (14th Oct 2023 - 12:14:08) Banning religion isn’t the answer am afraid, religion is just one instrument of grouping.. its humans tribal nature to group themselves into them and us is the problem and it will continue to exist even if we ban religion. It’s always a group, be it a religious group, a nationality, a colour of skin group, one sports team v another etc etc. For all the brillance of humanity we are not brillant at all. It’s built into us to destroy each other

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (14th Oct 2023 - 13:53:48) Sam-a depressing posting.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Francis (9th Nov 2023 - 19:39:55) Looking at recent events it would appear that the Israeli people are looking to ethically cleanse the Palestinian race.. It’s somewhat unbelievable that the UK and US still support this land grab. It’s almost like everyone is afraid to call out the Israeli murderers for what they have done.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - SteveC (9th Nov 2023 - 20:29:47) Oh Francis, if only it was that simple! Bad vs Bad in my opinion

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - PR (10th Nov 2023 - 13:44:21) Palestinians fought against Nazi Germany in the second world war ~ fact. This crazy world.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Paul (10th Nov 2023 - 14:39:12) @Mammal - Wiki is not seen as a credible source of information as it contains a high percentage of errors. Mentioning this as it would be better to quote more reliable and peer reviewed material to back up your statement.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Sue (10th Nov 2023 - 15:15:50) Palestinians collaborated with Nazi Germany in the second world war ~ fact. This crazy world.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Joe (11th Nov 2023 - 09:14:11) It is true that there was a Palestinian regiment who were fighting Hitler. This is well documented. I do not know where Sues’ “fact” comes from.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - mammal (12th Nov 2023 - 06:12:40) @Paul 'For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group. 'The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state. Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.' ~Times of Israel 'Initially, if Israeli accounts are to be believed, the Israeli government did not mind another centre of power emerging in the Occupied Territories to challenge the dominance of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO). A former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) official has reportedly said that Israel’s support for Hamas “was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative”.' ~The Hindu

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Ian (12th Nov 2023 - 09:32:15) Both sides are as bad as each other. The Israelis want to eradicate the Palestinians and they along with Israel’s Arab neighbours want to eradicate the Jews. Both as wicked as each other. Feel sympathy for the innocents on both sides caught in the middle but don’t care for the authorities on either side, both utterly corrupt and evil. (Same with Ukraine and Russia!)

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - George (4th Dec 2023 - 22:21:39) Somewhat unbelievable that the Jewish people are still trying to claim they’re the victims given the blood thirsty way they continue to kill innocent civilians. The victim card has been overplayed and has worn thin I think.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Grape (5th Dec 2023 - 07:11:40) The victim card had been played to destruction by the so-called Palestinians and their supporters for roughly 70 years (coming up to four generations) now and, only made matter worse for themselves. Collateral damage is sadly part and parcel in any "normal" war. But when it comes to Palestinians with the high population density, younger population and use of human shield - the results are even grimmer. Israel is fighting for its survival. It's one or the other, life or death. The pro-Palestinians demanded a pause in the fighting for alleged humanitarian relief. The Israelis eventually relinquished. The Palestinians have violated the pause in hostilities. What should the pro-Palestinians demand now? If anyone thinks that Israel is in this war for being "blood thirsty" then they are indeed the victims, victims of disinformation. Blaming Jews and Israelis of blood thirst smacks racist anti-Semitic language. I wonder what the police and the Moderator on here should make of that slur in a posting above.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - er (5th Dec 2023 - 11:16:04) Wow Grape I thought your last paragraph was way off the mark about police! I was rather sadly agreeing with you about Israel's hand being forced by Hamas, despite this war being remarkable in it's ferocity, with more explosives dropped on Northern Gaza so far, an urban area roughly comparable in size to Liphook, than both atom bombs dropped on Japan, the south of Gaza will now get the same or greater treatment, who or what will be left and where will they flee? People will argue for ever about the alternatives to war but once pragmatic heads are silenced, often with insults and a nation gets it in their heads that fighting is the only way and talk of negotiation is unpatriotic, debate is closed. But here we are not at war (yet!) so debate is our freedom! Israel has, arguably, a reputation for showing consideration of civilian populations in its past wars, but here, for reasons we all know, Israel appears to have changed its approach remarkably, working on a level of ferocity unseen before, it clearly wants Hamas defeated, but at what cost? Israel will know that even with American backing, political time is limited so the problem is apparently being managed with unprecedented levels of artillery and bombing presumably to get the job done (from an Israeli perspective) at lower military cost in terms of personnel and quickly, but where does that leave Israel's essential requirements to defend and protect both civilian populations, I'm not sure, what do you think? I like to read Israeli press, western press and Al Jazeera etc, so that I hear the rationale and dialogue of different 'sides' better, there doesn't appear to be any mood among the Israeli public to show much compassion to Gaza since the attacks, that is understandable for ordinary people, however governments and military are held to higher account, although sadly we see with most countries that unless they are overrun they will never allow their politicians or soldiers to be questioned by the UN or International Criminal Courts, they close ranks and in house accountability is a very poor substitute if at all! All of that is up for discussion here, because we lost two generations and our country was forever changed so that we could speak today our minds. Only in the gravest of abuses should that ever be a police matter or any of their business whatsoever!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - George (5th Dec 2023 - 12:49:27) @ Grape, keep your kippah or kippot on! Thanks for highlighting the underlying problem in every conversation about the Jewish race and conversation around it. Everyone who dares talk bad of the Jews is labelled a racist. No we are not racist for calling a bully out we are just against violence and the unbelievable sense of right to something which is not theirs and if anyone dare speaks up the race card is played by the bully! The scenario where someone is bullied and then becomes the bully in later life comparison springs to mind with the Israeli state! A bully is not a victim but someone with a dangerous chip on their shoulder and simply need to get over the historical events of their past. Bad things happened to a lot of other races, cultures and nationalities but they seem to keep it in perspective. The crimes of the past should be kept in the past and not used to justify mindless killing.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Grape (5th Dec 2023 - 14:56:15) er: I will respond to your posting but not the other contributor, I prefer not to waste time reading her/his postings. I too am in favour of free speech and grown-up exchanges. But I don't see the need to portray an entire nation as 'blood thirsty'. BTW, Jewish Israeli peace activists have been brutally murdered by Palestinians. So who is blood thirsty here? The peace campaigners? The entire nation? Blood thirsty reads very much like the medieval anti-Semitic blood libels where it was common to believe that Jews had nothing better to do in Easter other than drinking the blood of Christian babies. Some of us have moved on from that belief since, but demonstrably not all of us have. Hate speech is a hot topic. Not just in the antisemitism example. Society seems too immature to handle the subject and so the nanny must interfere to bring order back to the play-yard. There are usually the moderators or the police jumping in. However n this case none seems interested.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Penny Williamson (5th Dec 2023 - 16:11:01) Cutting through all the rhetoric in the recents posts of Grape, George and er the unvarnished and brutal truth is that Palestinian refugees and their descendants who were displaced in the 1947-49 and 1967 conflicts continue to be denied the right to return to their former places of residence. I am in no way condoning what Hamas did – it was indescribably horrible and I do not condone Jews in this country or any other being targeted, but what Israel has done with its land grabbing policies and treatment of the Palestinians for over 50 years has been and is completely unacceptable and is the main reason why there is Hamas. Even before the Hamas attack on October 7 there has been a significant increase in violence by Israeli settlers this year and approximately 400 Palestinians have been driven from their land between January and August. To date since October 7, 15,200 Palestinians, many of which are children, have been killed and Israeli settlers have now escalated their attacks on Palestinians across the West Bank. What the Israelis are doing now is a war crime and will be recorded in history as such, but what is more heartbreaking is that, however hard they try, the Israelis will not obliterate Hamas – their brutal response will create more radicalised, bitter and vengeful human beings.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (6th Dec 2023 - 10:56:11) Brilliantly well explained Penny

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - PR (6th Dec 2023 - 14:11:50) Penny Williamson As a partly Jewish person as yourself thank you for those words ~ a repetition of the persecution committed Nazi Germany. So very very sad,

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Anon (11th Dec 2023 - 14:06:42) It is very clear that many people - if not most - have swallowed the BBC and other's position on what is going on in Israel/Gaza without actually bothering to fact check (no wonder in all this people who are citizens of Israel who have visited the UK since October 7th are saying that they feel safer IN Israel, and the families in Israel of Jews living in the UK are calling them to join them in Israel where it is safer for them). So here are some FACTS for people. 1) Prior to the British Mandate the Holy Land was controlled by the Muslim Ottoman Empire. According to the Ottoman Empire, and backed up by the British Mandate, there were a few scattered settlements made up primarily of Jews and Christians. Around 10% of the population were Muslims with the majority of those being Bedouin migrants. 2) With the exception of 1 village ALL the names of communities were, and still are, either Jewish or Aramaic in origin. The one exception was Arabic. 3) In the early part of the 20th Century Arabs in the Holy Land refused the title "Palestinian" because the name Palestine was synonymous with the name "Israel" and denoted a Jewish ownership of the land. 4) After the Balfour Declaration the British Empire sold the Golan Heights to the French (who controlled what is now Lebanon and Syria). They also, through political subterfuge, created the nation of Jordan in order to appease the Arabs. 5) When Israel was created through the UN vote (the Soviet Union voting for the creation of Israel while the UK voted against) there was around 1000 "Arab Muslims". The States of Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria called for those Arabs to go into "refugee camps" with the promise that they would wipe out Israel and then the Muslims would have the choicest locations. As part of the creation of Israel the "Palestinians" were offered their own state - which they refused. 6) In Israel women, the LGBT and Muslims have equal rights to employment, self-expression, to vote, to own property, to health care, and to education. There are Muslim supreme court judges, university professors, leading surgeons, and there have even been Muslim government ministers. In fact Muslims inside Israel are supporting Israel's actions because they have rights which they would lose if Israel is wiped out as Hamas wants. 7) Hamas is known to steal aid, including fuel for hospitals, something that has been reported by Al Jazeera and mentioned by the UNHRC and WHO. Rather than little aid going in to Gaza, the testimony of Gazans at the moment is that the aid is being stolen by Hamas. 8) The leader of Hamas has stated that the only thing wrong with the Holocaust is that it did not wipe out the Jews. 9) The "Palestinian Arabs" have been offered a "two-state solution" at least once a decade since the State of Israel was created and have refused every time. 10) Among the videos of "dead bodies" is a "doctor" lamenting the death of a child which is clearly a doll whose eyes close when the head is moved. Another has a child having six fingers, one of which comes out of the wrist. While others have the "dead bodies" getting up of the stretchers - all these are actually find able on YouTube. 11) None of the Arab nations around Gaza and the West Bank are willing to take in Palestinian refugees. Then there is the fact that Hamas tried to smuggle out both wounded and healthy fighters when Egypt allowed non-Palestinians to exit across the border. Who says this? The Muslim Egyptian authorities. 12) The vast majority, over two thirds, of the population in Gaza do not support Hamas. So why are they in control? Money from Iran (who have the stated aim in their constitution of seeing Israel wiped out) and the sympathy of the "liberal West" who decry the pseudo-human rights abuses of Israel while turning a blind eye to the real human rights abuses of Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank. Sadly I am forced to post this without my name as I know the hatred that is going to be spewed towards me because I don't hate Israel and refuse to swallow the antisemitism of Amnesty, Human Rights Watch AND BBC News.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Anon (11th Dec 2023 - 17:07:13) Further to my earlier post - the unvarnished truth (to quote Penny) is that Palestinian Arabs were not "driven from their homes" in either war. Both "wars" were started by the Muslim nations wanting to wipe out Israel. In the 1947 War of Independence Jordan et al, as I stated, dropped leaflets and broadcast messages telling Arabs to leave their homes. When the Arab nations failed to destroy Israel they did nothing to help the "refugees". And it gets worse. When Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and Jordan controlled the West Bank there was no spending on infrastructure. Gaza and the West Bank had no investment given to them. There were no mosques being built, there were no hospitals or medical service, no schools. When Israel gained control of these two areas they turned from open air prisons to vibrant hubs. Rather than people being displaced hospitals, schools AND mosques were built. Gaza City grew from a town to a metropolis that received not only Israeli but American and European investment. So what happened? In line with the Camp David Accords Israel pulled out of Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights, handing control to the Palestinian Authorities. Almost overnight Hamas and Islamic Jihad started a campaign of terror towards Israel firing military grade rockets and missiles, supplied by Iran, Syria, Libya and other Muslim nations. This could reach 1000 a night. Footage taken by the Times of India shows terrorists planting rocket launchers next to schools and setting the timer so they fire rockets just before children arrive for school. In the end Israel was forced to build a fence - not a wall but a fence - to stop Hamas terrorists from entering into Israel. "Palestinian Arabs" have not only repeatedly been offered their own State there has been ample opportunity for them to return to Israel and become part of society where they have all the same rights as Jews. So why don't they? Because they don't want to. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Syria, Yemen, Fatah, Libya and other Muslim nations have it in their constitution that they will not rest until Israel is wiped out and all Jews are driven out of the Holy Land. This is why Mein Kampf is so popular in those nations, and why they view Hitler and his fellow Nazis as heroes. This IS the unvarnished truth, but it is not one that sits well with the liberal agenda.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Grape (11th Dec 2023 - 17:08:55) Responding to - Anon (11th Dec 2023 - 14:06:42): At long last, a word of truth comes out on this forum and sheds some light on the misinformation and plain lies plaguing the mainstream media and much of social media. If we are to argue world politics on this forum then this is what we need this forum to enable: A way in for the truth that's unspoken elsewhere. Anon- You're spot on in the background you've played out. Ignore the trolls, they will eventually learn, or sadly not.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (11th Dec 2023 - 17:14:53) Anon-why would anyone take seriously someone who presents a version of history and a complicated situation as facts. There are other versions.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Penny Williamson (11th Dec 2023 - 17:44:32) @ Anon You obviously did not read my post where I set out very briefly and succinctly why there is Hamas. Please read it. I would say that if Israelis feel safer in Israel than the UK then “lucky old them”. The damage that Hamas is doing to Israel cannot be all that bad. As I said previously I am half Jewish and I totally condemn what the Israelis are doing which is the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians including many children. Regarding your points 1, 2, 3, 4 , 5 anyone can read, look up and quote things from Google – I do myself but these points are in the past and irrelevant to what is actually taking place today. The State of Israel was founded on terrorism. On July 22, 1946, Zionist terrorists, under the leadership of Menachem Begin, set the fuses on bombs planted in the basement of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. At 12:37 a huge explosion ripped through the building, killing 91 people. Among the dead were 25 Britons, 41 Arabs, and 17 Jews. Thus was the State of Israel created by David Ben-Gurion in 1948. No one is condoning what Hamas did. It was indescribably horrible, but Israel's response has not been proportionate. Regarding your points 7 & 8, yes we can all mud-sling. A pointless exercise but I will retaliate. Two members of the Israeli Government said that the “Palestinians are human animals” and “there is no such thing as an innocent Palestinian.” Regarding point 9 - Yes a two state solution which does not include returning all the land that the Jewish settlers have seized for 50 years and are continuing to seize from the Palestinians at gun point. Regarding point 10 - I cannot comment as I have not seen this myself. Regarding points 11 and 12 I feel again they are irrelevant when you look at the slaughter of Palestinians which is taking place at the moment. I can only speak for myself when I say I do not “swallow” what the BBC reports. I listen carefully to our incredibly brave journalists such as Jeremy Bowen, Orla Guerin and Lucy Williamson and see the grief and horror in their faces. Anon, it is interesting that in the UN the vote in the 15-member council for an immediate ceasefire was 13-1. We, to our shame, abstained from the motion and America not surprisingly vetoed it. UK and America are now islolated in their stance regarding the Israel-Gaza War. I do not condone anti-semitism but nor do I condone the killing of some 19 thousand innocent people – and it is rising every day. There was a poignant moment on television last night when a Palestinian man said “never mind about the Aid, just stop the bombing.” What Israel is doing now is genocide and is a war-crime and it will go down in history as such.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Anon (11th Dec 2023 - 18:08:13) Well Passfield Resident. Firstly I have researched this issue rather than relying on "institutions" such as the BBC. In October the Israeli authorities showed the BBC News journalists, along with those from Sky News, ITV News, Reuters, Associated Press and all major Western News outlets footage taken from the bodycams worn by Hamas terrorists. This footage includes a [graphic content removed]. Very little, if any of this, has been mentioned by BBC News. But we know that the BBC News journalists have seen this because of an interview with a Hamas leader who was challenged by the journalist about Hamas' genocidal actions when he said that Hamas only targeted members and ex-members of the IDF. The journalist said that he had seen the footage which showed that the Hamas leader's statement was false. The BBC saw the footage and has not reported on it. Yet, just as with the doll being proclaimed a dead child by Hamas, people don't question what they are told. I did and did the research. I have seen the footage of "dead bodies" getting up after the news cameras stop rolling. I have seen the 1947 leaflet air dropped by Jordan et al. I have seen the footage of Hamas shooting at citizens who come to the aid lorries, or tried to escape south from the Israeli attack. I have seen the unedited footage of rocket propelled grenades being fired repeatedly from hospitals where even the UN claim it didn't happen. I have fact checked the claims by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and found them to be baseless. By their own admission Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel, they only want to wipe out Israel and all Jews. Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, the Syrian backed rebels in Yemen, and others want to do the same. And even people on this chat deny the right of Israel to exist, thereby siding with Hamas despite their claims to condemn their actions. This parallels what was going on in Europe and the USA prior to World War 2, and it is frightening to see.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Anon (11th Dec 2023 - 18:29:59) Penny - I did read your post and it was the clear Anti-Semitism and anti-Israel nonsense that led me to post. You do realise that there is footage that shows Hamas firing rockets from ground next to schools? You do realise that Hamas has declared that they don't mind how many children and sick are killed because they will be seen as martyrs so will be guaranteed a place in paradise? You do realise that one of the military commanders of Hamas is not only a convicted murderer and rapist but has been shown to use children as human shields? You do realise that there is clear unedited footage of rocket propelled grenades and general purpose machine guns being placed on Red Crescent ambulances, as well as being fired from hospitals? You do realise that there is footage of Hamas firing at people lining up to collect aid, that according to Al Jazeera news who interviewed Gazans there is more than enough aid getting in to Gaza but that it is being stolen by Hamas - aid that includes fuel and medicine for hospitals? In the light of the footage that exists but the BBC, Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Reuters, The Guardian, The Independent, and others know about and refuse to report, any "war crimes" are to be laid firmly at the feet of Hamas AND those who refuse to admit what Hamas are doing. As to "Jews feeling safer in Israel". A Jewish woman was stabbed in England recently. Jewish homes and properties have been vandalised and even firebombed. A Jew visiting London was warned not to leave the hotel he was staying in with his skull cap on as it was "too dangerous" for him to go out wearing it, a warning given by the non-Jewish receptionist. We are seeing in the UK, in the USA, and on mainland Europe a rise in anti-Semitic hate crime unat a rate unseen since Mosley, Franco, Mussolini, and others. And we see "educated" people who swallow the propaganda - which is as much what is not said as it is what is said - showing that Jewish Lives Don't Matter and Me too doesn't count for Jews.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Anon (11th Dec 2023 - 19:03:20) Oh Ms Williamson, please do your research as your posts firmly fall into the definition of Anti-Semitism. You do realise that Israel handed back control, pulled out of Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights as a direct result of the Camp David Accords and the Oslo Peace Process? You do realise that Israel also pulled out all settlers and handed property over to Palestinian Arabs? This means that unilaterally they handed back the land which was "taken at gunpoint". What happened? Fatah and Hamas refused, yet again, to recognise the right for Israel to exist and upped their terror campaigns. Any demands beyond this is to deny the right of Israel to exist. I am still wondering how Israel can take land at gunpoint from nomads who support Israel and when it was Jordan et al who told the 1000 Palestinian Arabs to go to "refugee camps"? As to the stupid argument about promotional response. Hamas is known to use children and the sick as human shields, declaring that if they die then they will be counted as martyrs. Hamas is known to use hospitals, schools and Mosques as basis. Hamas is known to steal aid, even from the UN, to feed their fighters, to fuel their private jets and top of the range German luxury cars. Hamas is known to use ambulances as vehicles to ferry fighters and as mobile gun platforms. Hamas shoots at Palestinians trying to get South from the fighting, shoots at those trying to get aid. Gazans have been telling Sky News, Al Jazeera and others that it is Sinwar, the leader of Hamas, and Hamas who are responsible for the deaths of Gazans. They don't seem to think that Israel is out of order, just as the Arabs living in Israel support Israel's actions. It is only those in the West with a liberal imperialism that condemns Israel for Hamas martyring it's "citizens". Oh yes, while you claim to not support Hamas actions on October 7th by your other words you "justify" their terrorism.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Lovey kissy (11th Dec 2023 - 19:19:26) Penny: Referring to your own historical "reasoning" as for 'why there is Hamas' excuse, and then state of Israel 'founded on terrorism' poorly conceived assertions - you then go and twice protest that Anon is referring to the past and the past is now irrelevant. That's a bit confusing. Being half-Jewish is no authority to distort the picture and misuse words. You claim that Israel is 'slaughtering' innocent Palestinians, how do you know? Killing many Palestinians as inevitable collateral loss, probably better describes the picture. 'Slaughtering' suggests intentional manual killing (NOT what Israel is doing to civilians) and better describes what the Islamists (that's not just Hamas) have been doing for years, then in October and continue to to so in various parts of the world. Are you seriously asking for 'proportionality', that Israel will give as good as it took from the Islamists?!? Sorry, I can't see Israel descending into what you're proposing. The BBC reporters may be genuinely upset with what they see in Gaza, it's horrific. They are way too involved siding with Gaza. How upset were they when shown around Israel (if at all invited)? The BBC have forever lost claims for balance and neutrality, what a pity. This 'genocide' you describe has seen the Palestinians growing in numbers from a few thousands to a few millions. Look up your chosen words and come back with better misinformed and misleading hate slogans.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Anon (11th Dec 2023 - 20:48:57) Penny I am now going to ask you straight out - what is an "appropriate" response to the following: Children in a neo-natal unit being murdered with assault rifles - because they are "Jewish"? Teenagers at a "peace festival" tortured, raped, shot and beheaded - because they are Jewish/in Israel? The murder and beheading of an elderly Thai Buddhist gardener at a Kibbutz - because he is in Israel? The rape, torture and murder of Arabs - because they live in Israel and are not of the creed of Hamas? The sexual abuse and murder of pre-teens - because they are Jewish/live in Israel? The mutilation of women and men while they were alive - because they are Jewish? The mutilation and burning of bodies so severely that hundreds are still not identified by professional forensic specialists over two months after October 7th? The threat, repeated by Hamas, that they will repeat what happened on October 7th again and again and again until all Jews are wiped out from the Middle East and Israel ceases to exist? The threat to do the same as Hamas did by Hezbollah, Syria, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, Iran and the Houthi rebels in Yemen? The use by Hamas and Islamic Jihad of schools, hospitals and Mosques as military bases? The use of children, the elderly, and the sick as human shields (something despots like Sadam Hussein did)? The use of Red Crescent ambulances as "safe" transport for terrorists to get into and out of Israel to conduct terrorist attacks? The use of Red Crescent ambulances, including by Hezbollah, as mobile rocket launcher and gun platforms? What is an "appropriate response" to a genocidal regime who is willing to "martyr" it's own people as long as it wipes out Jews both inside and outside of Israel and makes sure that there is no safe place for anyone with Jewish blood anywhere in the world? Surely, under Islamic law, an "appropriate response" would be for Israel to do what Hamas did and not warn people to leave an area for their safety (only for Hamas to stop them leaving). Surely it would be to machine gun babies in a neonatal intensive care unit rather than supply equipment to move them to safety after making sure it is safe to do so? Surely it would be to go in and rape, torture, mutilate, and murder rather than target Hamas fighters - fighters who have a uniform but don't wear it, and "come out" pretending to be citizens only to be wearing suicide belts? Surely it would be only returning the same number of people to Hamas as Hamas returns to Israel not the thousands in a swap for a few hundred (one Hamas leader was one of about 500 Hamas members who were swapped for ONE member of the IDF)? Having spoken with diplomats and others who have been involved with peace efforts in the Middle East it is not surprising that none of them believe Israel's response is "inappropriate" or "disproportionate". They know that, despite Sinwar, leader of Hamas, the government of Iran and others denying one moment the Holocaust happened, the stated aim of these groups is to finish what Hitler started. And all the while people whine about a ceasefire when it was Hamas who have repeatedly broken the ceasefires and truces. They whine about Israel being an "apartheid" regime despite it being the only democratic nation in the Middle East where males, females, those who are LGBT+, Muslims, Christians and Jews have equality in law and in practice. This whining is nothing more than Anti-Semitism hiding behind "concern for Palestinians", and it is sickening to see it as alive and well as we approach 80 years since Hitler was defeated, 80 years since the genocide of the Nazi death camps as it was in the build up to World War 2.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (11th Dec 2023 - 21:18:40) Anon-you are very casual about throwing around accusations of anti-semitism. It says a lot about your viewpoint that you are so over-excited about people who don't agree with you. As to your research- it means nothing to me to say you have researched a subject. You can research all you like, but it doesn't mean your conclusions are necessarily correct.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - M (11th Dec 2023 - 22:15:57) Editor. I think this thread has become a "hate" thread where no individual will every believe and understand the others point of view and maybe, considering this is a local TalkBack site, the time has come to call time and remove the thread?

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - John Jonson (12th Dec 2023 - 05:48:09) Suggesting that the thread should be closed now rings very Big-Brother Thought Police. -M- is attempting to muzzle the argument now that just it seems to have emerged to a more intelligent level, above the BBC's dumbed-down level, above the hateful social media level. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so intractable, opponents hold opposing opinions and using alternative facts or partial views that suit their argument. It thus turns into a quasi belief argument and a matter of affiliation rather than a right or wrong argument. @M- You need not feel threatened by views and opinions opposing your own on here. So long as the argument is contained within the bounds of civility - You should: Enjoy it for what it is, perhaps learn a thing or two, allow yourself freedom of information which we will not see from the biased dumbed-down BBC and the like. We should therefore cherish TalkBack facilitating this debate as a precious treat but somehow keep it civilised and legal. Hateful behaviour is neither. We still live in a society that is supposed to encourage free speech (or perhaps less so as time goes on), free thinking and free information. Let it take its course even if your views (that's all they are) may differ.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Ian (12th Dec 2023 - 07:26:24) This thread has turned into an Israel vs Arab type conflict. Deeply entrenched opinions, extremism and an unwillingness to compromise. And it could just rumble on and on!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Ian (12th Dec 2023 - 12:09:31) This thread has turned into an Israel vs Arab type conflict. Deeply entrenched opinions, extremism and an unwillingness to compromise. And it could just rumble on and on!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Penny Williamson (12th Dec 2023 - 16:37:17) @ Lovey kissy I knew someone would pick that up and of course what happened in 1946 - 1948 was in the past but it is very relevant because Israel was founded then by terrorists. Terrorists or Freedom Fighters. An interesting concept and it depends on which side you are. Anon, reading reading your posts I feel so much hatred in them and hatred is the root cause of all this conflict. I do not have hate in my heart. I just deplore the bloodshed being carried out now with thousands and thousands of innocent people being killed and called collateral damage. What a phrase. There will never be peace in this area until everyone and I mean everyone lays down their weapons and talks and I know that this will not happen for a very, very long time, if ever. Not all Jews agree with Israel’s re-action to the terror attack by Hamas, terrible though it was and they are branded and self hating Jews, abused and spat at. On the 17 October, 2023 leftwing Jewish activists campaigned against Israel’s bombardment and blockade of Gaza this week in Washington, culminating in protests that have seen hundreds arrested for civil disobedience outside the White House and Congress. Police detained about 400 demonstrators on Wednesday after they staged a sit-down protest on Capitol Hill demanding an immediate ceasefire in the latest hostilities between Israelis and Palestinians. The arrests followed a similar protest on Monday, when 50 activists were detained for blocking the gates of the White House. The events were organised jointly by Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow, two leftist groups campaigning on an avowedly anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian platform. Brant Rosen, a rabbi from Los Angeles, told demonstrators on Wednesday that they were witnessing “one of the most consequential moral moments that any of us will experience in our lifetime.” He said that future generations would ask: “Did we act or did we stand idly by while genocide was committed in our name?” Mel Tanzman, 72 a retired social work from New York, said: “You are called a self-hating Jew if you are concerned with what’s happening to the Palestinians. Any criticism is seen as antisemetic.” However there is a glimmer of light and human compassion: “Yael Noy doesn't wear military fatigues, but she describes herself as being in battle right now, after the Hamas assault on 7 October. "I'm fighting to be good," she tells me. "I'm fighting to stay moral when both sides are in such terrible pain. I'm fighting to be the same person I was before." Yael heads a charity called Road to Recovery, a group of Israeli volunteers who drive sick Palestinians - mostly children - from checkpoints in the occupied West Bank and Gaza to hospital appointments in Israel. In spite of the fact that Yael Noy's parents were in one of the kibbutzim attacked by Hamas on October 7 and are now displaced – in spite of the fact that in the immediate aftermath of 7 October she says she was so shaken that she could barely breathe, in spite of the fact that she said that something had been broken in her heart and she felt that she would never talk to people in Gaza again, after a few days, she decided that she couldn't allow the atrocities to change her. She and most of the Road to Recovery volunteers will continue to drive Palestinians from the West Bank to hospitals in Israel for cancer treatment, organ transplants and kidney dialysis. As soon as she can, she says she'll go and collect patients from Gaza again. A truly good and compassionate woman – it is people like Yael who will eventually bring peace.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - er (12th Dec 2023 - 20:41:16) Penny, you are a good person I'm sure, but I think you are no different to everyone else who argues from one perspective, in your case I'm getting the impression that's liberal. Hamas are monsters. There is no other way of putting it and Israel will not sleep safe at night ever again till they're gone. And by the way, we should put this into perspective, the Jewish people are naturally anxious people, how on earth does this make your average Israeli feel? So it is what it is. Going forward, there does need to be some kind of settlement, I think Israel has lurched too far to the right with Netanyahu after the last series of disastrous elections, but the far right and the settlers can't dictate tomorrow, there must be serious and (ok we've said this for decades) this time there must be concerted global pressure to find a permanent peace. Israel is actually a liberal country and Netanyahu will need to be put out to grass and people like the amazing Eyal Waldman who spoke today and the lady you mentioned must be listened to seriously. But that's (sadly) for tomorrow, today we should support the IDF as they do us all a favour and root out Hamas with as few civilians casualties as possible. If the war is over as quickly as possible it is actually better in the long run for everyone. Penny, you say your half Jewish, I didn't think that was a thing, any more than being half Catholic. I'm not saying you can't try, I remember in our family my grandmother put up a menorah and a Christmas tree, she was ahead of her time, but I think in law you can only be one or the other! Anyway, I'm sure we all wish peace to everyone in that region and in Ukraine and everywhere else this Christmas, good night all!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (13th Dec 2023 - 08:42:22) er-you completely miss the point. Israel is punishing a whole people with little concern for civilian casualties. Rather than using its ground forces to defeat Hamas, it has used indiscriminate air attacks knowing large numbers of innocent people will be killed, and forcibly relocating thousands more.The saying an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth has no meaning to the Israeli government-they demand four eyes and four teeth in a way that clearly shows that they put greater value on Israeli lives than on the lives of other peoples.Hamas may be monstrous, but they are no more monstrous than the actions of a supposedly democratic country with a powerful military crushing a whole society.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - igs (13th Dec 2023 - 13:11:11) Apparently with online forums, on average you will have about 30 seconds of attention for text contributions and 2 minutes span for pictures. A lot of this content is going to be ignored then.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - 80% (13th Dec 2023 - 13:44:41) igs don't worry about the average, they never change much, they need to be led either by the 10% at one end of the argument or the 10% at the other, like you said give them some pretty pictures, or simplistic arguments, and they're happy for a while then if you ask their opinion they'll parrot something they heard in the most simplistic of terms of all (bloomin foreigners, blooming left wing, bloomin right wing etc) or tell you they're not at all interested in politics, religion, economics etc because there's nothing we simple folk can do about it anyway, and turn back to looking at their pretty pictures, humans are the most intelligent creatures, but only just and then only some, as all politicians know, the majority are best offered a couple of carrots and then hopefully they'll keep quiet for a bit and can be ignored!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Penny Williamson (14th Dec 2023 - 13:38:47) Igs and 80% don't judge others by yourselves. Latest news: "Israel's ambassador to the UK rejects a two-state solution between Israel and the Palestinians" Hope of peace is now fading into the very, very distant future, if ever. So sad.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - igs (14th Dec 2023 - 17:38:18) Of course Penny, you might just be in the minority! (shock horror!)

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (14th Dec 2023 - 21:21:16) Penny might be in a minority,but it's a good minority. She puts her views thoughtfully and constructively. She is also polite, which is not always the case on internet forums.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Dealton (19th Dec 2023 - 07:41:12) Good words could be said about Penny's contributions. Even sadder when she was expressing herself in an extreme form of pro-Palestinian talk that is antisemitic. She could be forgiven for being disinformed, but hateful talk with a poor excuse of being part-Jewish is inexcusable.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - mammal (19th Dec 2023 - 11:00:28) As a matter of record: in 1999 Yugoslavia was accused of ethnically cleansing Albanians. And after refusing to withdraw from Kosovo, NATO bombed the Milošević regime into compliance, mainly military targets. The number of Kosovar Albanians killed was less than 10,000 and 1 million displaced. In terms of Gaza, we are beyond that number by a considerable margin. So a precedent has been set. Let's hope Israel comes to its senses soon.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - passfield resident (19th Dec 2023 - 14:18:46) Dealton-if you are accusing someone of extremism and racism you should have the guts to state your name. Before you say anything, I haven't posted under my own name but then I haven't called anyone racist.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - James (19th Dec 2023 - 17:05:18) I do find it hard to support these murdering Israeli’s. They seem to have mistaken blood thirsty vengeance for defence!! There was an Austrian who committed wide scale indiscriminate killing not too long ago and history now views him as a naughty person. I wonder will history look back at the Israeli’s as a aggressors and murderers in this land grab or have they patented the victim card for eternity.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Sam (19th Dec 2023 - 20:29:40) Antisemitism’s definition boundaries have been successfully extended to include anything and everything including non offensive free speech, seems if you air your views responsibly and its contrary to someone’s views your an antisemite now. Go look online at the democracy that is the United States, an organisation exists which pours millions of funds into the opposition candidates when any member of government says anything mildly opposed to the Israeli state, ie they pay the opposition to beat you and remove you from government.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - James (25th Dec 2023 - 09:37:12) Very sad to see that the those blood thirsty Israeli people couldn’t even stop for Christmas Day. When will the world stand up and call them out for what they truely are! Animals!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Bill (25th Dec 2023 - 10:37:41) It’s amazing to watch on and see how the Jewish people are allowed to carry out genocide in plain view on the world stage and still they still try to hang on to the we're the victim narrative as justification.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Another Voice (28th Dec 2023 - 15:38:39) Sorry to revive this thread in the joyful 'Holiday Season' but I've had a read through some of the comments, which seem very passionate and well meaning. No one has all the answers, but I do suspect America and it's followers are blithely fighting yet another proxy war, ever since Biden fled Afghanistan in dissaray and defeat, causing terrible suffering to so many, the US has seemingly been following a policy of belligerence with half the world as long as it doesn't cost any direct American losses and increases US global financial dominance, don't be fooled by Biden's Democrat status, the guy is looking more and more like a destabilising world influence and a hawk, he may look like your wobbly old grandad but there's a coldness in his heart. Even Trump advocates for peace across the troubled regions of the world more! The following was written in early November and things have got much worse since then but I give you an excerpt from a speech by Bernie Saunders, a great man who really does care a out people (the President the US should have had!): "Needless to say, I do not have all of the answers to this never-ending tragedy. But for those of us who believe in peace and justice, it is imperative that we do our best to provide Israelis and Palestinians with a thoughtful response that maps out a realistic path to addressing the reality we face today. Here are my thoughts as to the best way forward and how the United States can rally the world around a moral position that moves us toward peace in the region and justice for the oppressed Palestinian population. To start, we must demand an immediate end to Israel’s indiscriminate bombing, which is causing an enormous number of civilian casualties and is in violation of international law. Israel is at war with Hamas, not innocent Palestinian men, women and children. Israel cannot bomb an entire neighborhood to take out one Hamas target. We don’t know if this campaign has been effective in degrading Hamas’s military capabilities. But we do know that a reported 70 percent of the casualties are women and children, and that 104 U.N. aid workers and 53 journalists have been killed. That’s not acceptable." You can read the full speech here: sanders.senate.gov/op-eds/... As Bethlehem is under siege and they had no Christmas joy there, as refugee camps are blitzed daily and just today I read Israel apologised for the death of another 70 civilians(probably far higher) in one of the bombing raids in a refugee camp, as hostages waving white flags and begging for salvation in Hebrew can be accidentally shot dead how much can we trust the Israelis that all strikes are surgically targeted? I know Britain is hardly a Christian country any longer, and Christmas just means flashy lights and heaps of non-recyclable plastic wrapping paper, but the world is shifting towards chaos once more and we should all wake up and care, it seems from this thread that as ever only the few passionate minority are bothered to speak up and risk being slammed for their opinions. I'll just finish with a quick word of support for Penny who I think is a very reasonable and fair person, I do not always agree with her on TalkBack but she is a brave and caring member of our community and has every right to voice her concerns as we all do. Let's pray for a less traumatic new year and more equitable world with less violence for everyone!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Bill (29th Dec 2023 - 22:28:21) Another 180 innocent civilians killed in the last 24 hours by the state of Israel while carrying out their mindless culling of the Palestinian people. Awful atrocities being carried out by the Israeli state.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Bob (8th Jan 2024 - 09:13:28) 22,835 Palestinians murdered in Gaza to date, with a further 111 murdered and 250 wounded added to the tally in the previous 24 hours. Not a very proportionate response. It is not defence being carried out by the Israeli state but wide scale ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Even the US is now beginning to question the motives!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Penny Williamson (8th Jan 2024 - 15:52:11) I think Ben Wallace's recent statements sum up the whole dreadful Gaza situation. "Ben Wallace has warned Israel that its “killing rage” risks undermining the legal basis for its action in the Gaza Strip, adding to growing international pressure over the escalating conflict. Mr Wallace warned: “Netanyahu’s mistake was to miss the (Hamas) attack in the first place. “But if he thinks a killing rage will rectify matters, then he is very wrong. His methods will not solve this problem. In fact, I believe his tactics will fuel the conflict for another 50 years.” On Friday he told LBC Israel must “separate Hamas from the oxygen of popular support” in the Gaza strip. He defended his earlier comments on the conflict and said Israel’s current approach risks pushing more Gazans toward supporting Hamas." Ben Wallace was a superb Secretary of State for Defence and a great MP. Joe Biden who is no friend to the UK blocked his bid to become leader of Nato. Instead Biden is backing Ursula Von de Leyen. She was Minister of Defence for Germany and not a particularly good one. Ben Wallace has now resigned as an MP - so sad - the good ones just leave and that is why the world is in such a mess.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Richard (14th Jan 2024 - 09:29:10) 23,000 people murdered in Gaza and much of the besieged Palestinian territory. Even the African nations are calling it Genocide! Jesus if they’re now looking on and calling it mindless murdering rage there must be alarm bells ringing!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Rupert Roberts (26th Jan 2024 - 17:22:31) Israeli state has been found guilty of committing genocide! The arrogance of these people is quite astonishing as they still try and deny the well documented atrocities carried out by Israel in Gaza.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - er (27th Jan 2024 - 19:02:50) No the ICJ didn't find Israel guilty of genocide or ask them to stop attacking. It will take years to decide and the court quite rightly didn't jump to ay conclusions. If it had, that would have destroyed its credibility in the west and damaged long term hopes of Israel being under any pressure to stop. As it is, by stating that genocide might be taking place and ordering Israel to present a plan in one month stating how it intends to avoid genocide, what it's doing to reign in extremism and how it will preserve evidence fairly, to supply the Gazan civilians with enough food and medicine, avoid hitting non combatants etc it has actually been more effective, since noone in the west can call this excessive or anti Semitic or a blood libel and both sides (Israel and South Africa) can claim some sort of victory, the Americans now have to be careful supplying weapons to the war zone as there is potentially a possibility they are supplying weapons for genocide hanging and although they'd not likely ever be held to account, it could be politically embarrassing if the electorate found out. I think this is a very clever judgement as it avoids fuelling flames in the west or claims the court is now irrelevant like the UN, it assuages some of the global non white south's complaints that international justice only protects white lives and it offers the best possible chance of a lasting peace deal and the freeing of Israeli and Palestinian hostages and prisoners. It's all to play for but at least it offers a glimmer of hope to the war ravaged region and the peace loving people's of all the world, who I'm sure are still the majority (despite all the depressing right wing extremis views rising across the world not just in the middle east, but America, Europe, India, China, Russia etc!)

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - John Evans (27th Jan 2024 - 19:19:06) It’s amazing that an African nation is bringing Israel up on genocide charges at the UN. Israel is having its very own version of a holocaust and condemning others for previous ones!

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - John Jonson (28th Jan 2024 - 08:28:19) What's even more amazing is how selective our Moderator is on this chat, and how ill-equipped in understanding history are many of the contributors. Idiocy and hate will bite you back.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Dave Dixon (28th Jan 2024 - 21:42:06) The moderater is very balanced on this subject I find. The Jewish race is not immune in being called out for their racist and genocide way of life which is good for a balanced view point. For a long time everyone was afraid to say the Jews were racist and guilty of being part of carry out a holacoust of their own creation.

Re: Gaza-Israel conflict - Penny Williamson (29th Jan 2024 - 11:32:51) John Johnson Would you please clarify what you mean by “the Moderator is selective on this chat?” Are you implying that the Moderator is only printing certain posts on this subject? If you are then I think you are wrong because posters whose posts are not printed are very quick to point this out to the Moderator by email. I myself have done this and the Moderator’s very fair response told me why but said on this occasion he would print my post. I would also like you to clarify you statement “Idiocy and hate will bite you back” because I am not at all clear to whom that remark is directed. I do most sincerely hope that you will not be one of these posters who, when their post is questioned, just ignore the question.

Reply to THIS thread
Talkback Home