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Women’s Equality in everything - Camilla (23rd Nov 2023 - 14:34:07) I’m a lady of a certain age and find the release of woman and children first in the Israel - Palestinian conflict a bit hard to swallow. Should it not be “children and adults”to be released first and not the old ideal of “children and women”.How can we have equality if when it comes to war and defending our hard fought beliefs we hide behind our sexuality and expect to be treated differently as if we are handicapped in some way and need to be shielded. I’m interested to hear the opinions of the younger females who are more in touch with what’s the new norm to see what they think of this situation and offer an opinion.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Joe (23rd Nov 2023 - 15:23:01) Not going to comment much to say except if a mother and her children are being held hostage together it would maybe not be great to release those young children / babies first, alone, who do not have anyone else to care for them in a war time situation.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Sue (23rd Nov 2023 - 15:33:47) I agree with Camilla. Equal means equal, no "help" and no concessions. A parent is a parent whether male or female. A child needs to be released with their caring parent.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Penny Williamson (23rd Nov 2023 - 15:34:07) I don't really understand what you mean when you say that children and adults should be released first as opposed to women and children. The phrase children and adults covers everyone and if that was the case who would play God and choose. I am not a feminist because men and women are not exactly the same and never have been. However I do think that men and women should be give equal opportunity and when it comes to jobs be paid at the same level as men for doing exactly the same job. I also think there should be more respect and that applies to everyone whatever their gender. However to return to the hostages in Gaza I think that women and children should be released first not least because some of children will be the offspring of the women. I know that it is also possible for some of the men to be fathers as well. Then there is also the question of the elderly and infirm. Should they take priority? It's a difficult question and I wouldn't like to choose.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Sue (23rd Nov 2023 - 15:45:38) On a similar subject: Where were all the feminists crying for equality when Ukrainian men were sent to face the wrath of Russia whilst Ukrainian women were bussed away? Equal means equal. Hypocritical mean unequal.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Reasonable (23rd Nov 2023 - 16:34:36) There is no right or wrong answer, just emotion or custom or aw. Surprisingly to many, equality in law doesn't mean treat everybody equally, it means do what is necessary to ensure equality of opportunity. To do this you very often need to discriminate against those who had too.much opportunity. In any event it has nothing to do with a hostage or war situation. Take Ukraine, when Zelensky declared martial law, he banned all men aged 18-60 from leaving the country, we have never questioned this, on the contrary we have fully supported this and all his other decisions, many thousands have been arrested at gunpoint or shot trying to escape, swimming rivers, faking illnesses, bribing officials, women however can come and go as they please. Is this equality? Yes, because a lot of these countries have different laws to us, if we had a war and declared martial law, would we ban just men or women too from fleeing? Of course we wouldn't conscript women, how would that provide them with better opportunities? We would make a moral choice, Israel has done the same, even though Israel conscripts men and women equally, in that way it is more enlightened than us (or is it, what do women think?). It is also worth noting that Israel is a secular country, not a religious country, unlike Britain (officially still Christian in name at least!), at its inception Zionism was mainly a response to the Holocaust, confusing because people often give a religious justification, but the state itself didn't. So In no way is this a religious war, it is a war for survival of two different peoples. That Hamas has jeopardised the lives of its civilian population and it's women and children die in their thousands, Israel is protecting its women and children, that should tell us a lot about the two different sides, one our ally, one designated terrorists by much of the world. Of the Palestinians held in Israeli jails, Hamas demands men, women and children, but mainly men, Israel knows many of the men will go on to fight for Palestine, yet it still is willing to negotiate to save its women and children. So you should understand there is no absolutely clear right or wrong answer to your question, as with many things, for every argument one way, there is a counter argument there, is no absolute, just opinions and power to enforce them! War is always terrible and hard decisions have to be made that you wouldn't necessarily make in peace time. Personally, I couldn't imagine a man voluntarily taking the place of a woman or child in such a situation, I hope any man would give his place to a woman or child in an instant.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Penny Williamson (23rd Nov 2023 - 16:35:54) Exactly Sue which is why I am not a feminist.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - M (23rd Nov 2023 - 16:38:51) Don't forget that Hamas is an Islamist Terrorist organisation and therefore they see women in a different way to our society. You can't judge what other countries/societies do based on our own country/society.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - PR (23rd Nov 2023 - 17:04:40) If the Israelis had not stamped their feet on Palestine non of this would be happening - Karma will get you

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Oldie (23rd Nov 2023 - 17:25:34) What ever is the world coming to . Being old sometimes on a bus a lady will offer her seat to me I’m not disabled so I normally say thank you but I’m ok . I sometimes offer my seat to a lady because that’s how I was brought up nothing to do with being man or woman just polite. Of course it should be women and children first because I would think all the children are with their mothers if there are fathers with children then they also should join the mothers. That’s how it should be nothing to do with male or female. It’s just common sense.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Reasonable (23rd Nov 2023 - 21:03:04) Oldie, sadly it can't be left down to common sense, since most people don't have common sense, it's actually quite uncommon! If we let people decide anything based on 'common sense' we'd end up with anarchy or worse still, Brexit! Nobody would agree a thing or else the loudest would always win! There have to be established societal rules, if you were on a sinking ship it would be strictly women and children first, any man trying to get on a lifeboat could be legally shot by the captain, at least that's how it was and I'm not sure anyone changed it, if a woman chooses not to go that's her prerogative, you only need a few blokes left after a war to repopulate a society, you would be in serious trouble if there were loads of men and only a few women, men are therefore more dispensable, sorry, always have been, if it wasn't for the chance evolutionary facts of childbirth among animals, male and female might have evolved completely differently, as it is men came to be aggressive, soldiers, dispensable, women were protected and cherished, it is a real shame if this is changing, men should always give their lives for women, equality should be for positive changes like employment, home life, relationships, not life and death in war or times of disaster.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - passfield resident (23rd Nov 2023 - 21:18:42) One answer to the original poster might be that women and children are being released first because they are seen as non-combatants.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Joe (23rd Nov 2023 - 22:29:29) Also I think if all the leaders in the world were ladies there may be less wars started.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Sue (24th Nov 2023 - 06:37:02) So there you have it Camilla. -Reasonable had put it to us as clear as possible: "Equality" between men and women is when suits. This is the opposite of equality. These sentiments laid out by Reasonable expose the sickening hypocrisy and the audacity of treating men as inferiors. The overly extensive writing by Reasonable shows a lack of understanding of evolutionary principles and of history. It shows total disrespect and ingratitude of men's leading role contribution in society. I used to be a feminist, no longer.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Pop (24th Nov 2023 - 09:25:00) Reasonable - so common sense equals what you believe to be right! ie you obviously objected to Brexit, but to a Brexit supporter it was a no brainer and absolutely common sense to leave the EU. Glad you're one of the few with common sense though. How do the rest of us plebs function?

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Penny Williamson (24th Nov 2023 - 09:57:36) Totally agree PR. Although I utterly condemn Hamas for what they did on October 7 the fact remains that the Israeli Government have treated the Palestinians disgracefully for over 50 years and their “land-grabbing” has been unacceptable. However the West seem to accept the fact that Palestinians can be removed from their homes and that is why there is a Hamas Government in Palestine. Not justifying this just stating a fact. Joe totally agree. Reasonable, perhaps that is why we now have a Minister for Common Sense.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Resident (24th Nov 2023 - 11:06:51) @Camilla - I hardly think a discussion about pronouns and how people would like to be referred to (women and children vs children and adults) is even remotely relevant when people are being held hostage underground by a terrorist organisation. I can only assume you posted to troll and goad others on social media.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - PR (24th Nov 2023 - 14:38:07) Thank you Penny Williamson. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. John Donne The words are 400 years old, but still ring true for the inhumanity of man to man. Be not judgemental.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Lep (24th Nov 2023 - 15:19:51) Such a shame the subject of the thread is being subverted by Brexit argument and total rubbish non-facts about the Palestinian problem.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Pete (24th Nov 2023 - 15:45:53) Joe- I think Suella Braverman has shot holes in that theory.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Billy the Fish (24th Nov 2023 - 15:49:48) Lep How do you work that one out - only one poster - Pop - mentions Brexit Have you perhaps a hidden agenda ?

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Observe (24th Nov 2023 - 16:29:55) Billy the fish reasonably mentioned it having a go at oldie about common sense.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Penny Williamson (24th Nov 2023 - 16:51:47) Pete please substantiate your statement about Suella Braverman shooting holes in that theory. It is well documented that the Israeli Government for many years have displaced Palestinians. For the records I do not condone any sort of anti-semitism directed at Jews in this country or any other country. My mother was Jewish and I know that she would have disapproved at Israel's disproportionate response. There needs to be a peaceful two-state solution and sadly we are long way off that at the moment.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Joe (25th Nov 2023 - 17:33:49) I think the poster meant that Suella Braverman is capable of starting a war. In my opinion although I think she would love to be Prime Minister she hopefully will not be given that role.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Pete (27th Nov 2023 - 12:34:30) Penny- My post was in reply to Joes post regarding female leaders, I did explicitly put Joe's name first to make this clear.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Pete (27th Nov 2023 - 12:38:49) Penny- Can't see how it could relate to the first Joe post not her remit.

Re: Women’s Equality in everything - Penny Williamson (27th Nov 2023 - 14:06:07) Pete Your statement still makes no sense. Suella Braverman is not "starting a war" unless you are referring to "the war" raging in the Conservative Party, nor is she advocating one which is way I asked for clarification. I knew exactly to which post you were referring. I don't agree with a lot of what Suella Braverman is saying and has said, but I would not call her a "warmonger" which is what you seem to be doing.

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