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concerns - Sam (14th Nov 2005 - 14:04:21) We are a family of four looking to move into Liphook for a better quality of life. Having visited the village several times over the past few months, it already feels like home and the people we have met so far, have been very friendly. However, before we make a final committment, we would appreciate some honest views with regards to the 'chav/yob' element that seems to be a recurrent issue on this site. Coming from an area that is already beset with a greater level of drink fuelled violence, this is the sort of problem that we are trying to get away from! Although we realise that this type of behaviour is prevalent in most parts of the UK, less is preferable to more! In particular, we are interested in the areas around Radford Park are there any known problems of misbehaviour within that area?

Re: concerns - Eneida Nelson (14th Nov 2005 - 14:32:42) Hi Sam, I moved to Liphook about 5 years ago (Headley Road) and I'm not aware of any extreme yob/chav behaviour, just the usual sort of thing you get almost anywhere nowadays....although the local Book Club can get quite 'heated' ;) Eneida

Re: concerns - Chris (14th Nov 2005 - 14:45:37) We have only had one or two ASBOs according to our local press and most of the disruptive behaviour and vandalism (comparitively little) is carried out by people who live outside the area. Check with the police if you have any doubts or look at the crime stats on upmystreet.co.uk.

Re: concerns - Mike Grimes (14th Nov 2005 - 15:17:07) A quick search on chavtowns.co.uk for 'Liphook' comfortingly returns the message 'No matches found to your query'.

Re: concerns - Freddie Dawkins (15th Nov 2005 - 11:36:08) What has been very noticeable in the past few months, has been the improvement in police liaison with the community. Our neighbourhood officer/s really are visible again - as they used to be before all the "management changes" started in the central area command. After a lot of false starts, our local police do seem to be much more accountable and making a real effort to build bridges again. East Hampshire District Council's crime prevention/reduction "contracts/partnerships" are producing positive results and Bramshott & Liphook Parish Council have been working hard to encourage local police to be more involved with what's happening. I can remember 5-6 years ago, when we had a real "yob" element in The Square at times. Mostly teenagers with even younger brothers and sisters (as young as 8) wandering around late at night. All that has stopped. We are really lucky to live in such a peaceful area - let's keep it! Freddie Dawkins Parish Councillor

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (16th Nov 2005 - 14:33:36) Sam- Liphook does have a chav element, but its not as bad as most other towns. You are in saying that all places are burdened with that type of thing to some degree, and we are no exception. Its not uncommon to see tracksuits and scraped-back hair on occasion, but as most have said, its got a lot better in recent years. There are a few hotspots, such as Sainsburys car park and the station, but most of the time you won't get in the midst of any trouble unless you actively go looking for it. Most of these kids are from fairly well-off families and think that they are much tougher than they actually are.

Re: concerns - Finchie (16th Nov 2005 - 18:52:46) Hi Sam, Liphook is a great place to live and would recommend it without any hesitation. And what you will find once you are here is what a great bunch of friendly people live here. We moved here just over 3 years ago and have never regretted it for a moment. If you have a young family, the schools are fantastic. I think this web site is a great place - and people vent - rightly so otherwise it would be pretty boring. So if you took the posts on face value all you would think is that we have power cuts, the trains are bad, the rock festivals are noisy, the roads are used as a race track, there is constant roadworks and water main problems on the Headly road. Ah - come to think of it ... (joking !) And in terms of kids - no one could ever call them yobs. Just energetic youngsters looking for things to do - luckly Portsmounth & Guildford are very accesible with loads to do. A group of kids all wearing hoodies look much more intimidating than they actually are ! I have no idea of where you are coming from - but gut feel says that you will get that "better quality of life" you are looking for. Cheers, Finchie

Re: concerns - Steve Read (16th Nov 2005 - 19:48:00) Well said again Finchie. Hi Sam, if your children are into any sport there are numerous clubs and activities, the football club alone has a youth membership of over 220 boys and girls so as someone has pointed out you will see tracksuits. The "hotspots" around Sainsburys car park are wicked just look out for all the people trying to park inside the doors or as close as possible then charging headlong into the side of your car with a trolley whilst on the mobile. The station "dodgy area" especially around 7.30am and 6.00pm when some suited yobs run across the road late for their trains, their wives abandon cars anywhere so hubby does not have to run too far or the favourite try getting a thankyou whilst holding the door at the newsagents in an attempt to escape the stampede for the train already in the platform. Defining a "yob" by the way he or she dresses can often catch you out, as can pressuming the financial income of any family has any bearing on manners and politeness. Sam, I'am sure you will enjoy Liphook and find most people very welome towards you and your family.

Re: concerns - liz (17th Nov 2005 - 10:28:31) Steve The 'suited' yobs, as you describe them could of course be responsible for the damage to station property, broken bottles, rubbish etc (I'll leave some of it to your imagination) that accumulate overnight but I doubt it. They may also be the ones that scream, shout, yell and fight on their way home from the station/pub late on Friday or Saturday nights leaving a trail of damage and more broken bottles. Some of those that hang around Sainsbury's in groups are a bit more intimidating and I have one friend who will not venture there on her own late in the evening. I know this is not major stuff but these are not 'nice kids'!

Re: concerns - Lesley (17th Nov 2005 - 13:11:07) Nice one Steve! I've been here 15 years now, kids have grown up here too. We got involved in village activities (schools/ Clubs/football/cricket/carnival and got to know many friends and would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone. The Yob elements are mostly imports from the south but they are not that bad really. I've never had a problem with Liphook Chav's (Liss Chav's maybe but not Liphooks). The only problems I have are with those who Steve mentioned who think they can drive and park where they please and generally do as they like, normally those in BMWs, Volvo's & Merc's and specially those who dont do their bit for the Community. We all look forward to coming to your house warming party!

Re: concerns - F (17th Nov 2005 - 13:23:13) The youth football club now has a membership of "297".

Re: concerns - Steve Read (17th Nov 2005 - 19:41:45) Liz, I think you missed the point. Of course there will always be an element who will cause the problems that you have, highlighted, name me somewhere that does not. What do you want to do, close all the pubs, demolish Sainsburys & remove the station. All I'am saying is its dangerous to define a yob by his or her clothing choice, haircut, tattoos, the way they speak or financial income. This village over the last 40 years plus has like everywhere grown beyond all recognition but with this growth has come all the added problems. I hasten to add its far from the case that there were not problems here before. Those who post on here from that time will tell you we had a village policeman and god forbid he caught you up to no good, but like all things today he and his method for dealing with these "yobs" have long been made redundant and frowned upon. Anti social behaviour certainly should not be tolerated but its here, always has been and always will be in some form or another and dressed accordingly.

Re: concerns - liz (18th Nov 2005 - 10:56:14) Steve Talk about missing the point! I did not mention haircuts, tattoos, speech or income. Nor do I recall blaming the station, Sainsburys or the pubs themselves for the yob element. Just making the point that there is a very rowdy yob element in Liphook, particularly on Friday and Saturday nights and they are responsible for the vandalism etc. As has already been mentioned, the police did a very good job a few years ago of improving the situation in the square - but don't seem much in evidence nowadays. What Liphook was like 40 years ago is irrelevent in the current context.

Re: concerns - Old In-comer (18th Nov 2005 - 16:46:49) As the mother of an ex-Liphook chav - I would like to tell you about my dear little chav - who was an angry 15 year old girl who used to congregate with her firends in a very unnattractive fashion on the Anchor bench. She and all her friends used to try so hard to look menacing and threatening. Six short years later, she is teaching in an inner city London School and regularly calls me and weeps as she tells me of the menacing and threatening conditions in which the small children, she teaches, live. Lets not forget - this is Liphook, this is Hampshire, we are fortunate to live here. And the chavs/yobs or whatever you like to call them are our children and because they come from comfortable homes and have had the benefit of good schooling they in turn will go forth in to the big, bad world and lets hope they will have it in them, through their own experiences in their own, cosy, "chav-land" to bring about some changes to children who really do have something to be angry about.

Re: concerns - mammal (20th Nov 2005 - 05:39:41) In that case we should tollerate all chav behaviour as something they will grow out of in their own good time and mature into socially responsible adults. I am always in favour of the carrot AND the stick with regards to anti social activities.

Re: concerns - Chris (20th Nov 2005 - 06:06:43) So, there you have it! There are yobs and there are chavs but the Liphook ones turn out OK and become respected members of the community eventually which of course excuses any anti-social behaviour indulged in during their "angry" period. So much bad influence these days on tv and in the media in general where bad behaviour seems to be venerated and idolised; it's a wonder that we aren't all hanging round the square swearing at passers by!

Re: concerns - S (21st Nov 2005 - 15:48:07) My angry period when I was a teenager was spent playing football for Liphook which helped make them into a decent team to represent. Football came first and everything else a forgotten 2nd. I did have a computer but Playstations were not heard of yet. Running around all day kicking a football in the park helped keep me fit, stopped me from becoming obese and kept me out off the streets where I could of caused trouble. The difference is I was brought up to have respect for other people and their property, if I didn't I got a smack. Kids nowadays have no respect for anything and it's the Parents, society and the bleeding idiots that think children can be disciplined by talking and reasoning with them that cause this. Absolute rubbish. It's not a Liphook problem it is a problem accross the country. Now I work with Computers and have done ok. I still wish I was kicking a football for my salary though.

Re: concerns - Tom (21st Nov 2005 - 15:57:45) We moved to Liphook from London about five years ago, and immediately noticed the lack of any real threatening 'yobs'. Of course you could find trouble if you really went looking for it (as you could anywhere) - but it doesn't come looking for you. The best was when we saw some vandalism which (although never to be condoned in any form) seemed to contain obscenities along the lines of 'bum' and 'willy'. Bless. I don't even think twice about confronting kids if I do see them causing damage. My brother - living in South Croydon - lives in an entirely different world. I'm not suggesting that anyone else does the same, but it's when kids know no-one will challenge them that they get out of control. We should be grateful that we have the opportunity to live in such an area. Tom

Re: concerns - janet (21st Nov 2005 - 22:38:29) Didn't know Liphook had a book club. It's not listed in the clubs and societies section. Anyone got any information about it?

Re: concerns - a (22nd Nov 2005 - 01:22:07) Crikey Janet, you know not what you have done!!

Re: concerns - mammal (22nd Nov 2005 - 06:12:21) Thinking about the carrot and stick technique I think it would be better to smack them with a giant carrot. Does it not worry anyone here that everyone is trying to escape from yob infested areas. So what are we saying, that this culture is making us into refugees seeking sanctuary in the leafy suburbs. Cheeky nippers are a fact of life but all this neo liberalism is promoting something far more sinister in my opinion. What is this fear of giving them a smack now and then, you go to any other country where the youth have some respect for the older community and you rest assured they catch it if they step out of line. believe me, and they aren't all oppressed and emotionally damaged. Of course so many children are beaten and abused for all the wrong reasons here that we cannot be seen to condone violence in any form.

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (22nd Nov 2005 - 11:14:21) Its terrifying when you start to see people's real attitudes towards keeping order. Yesterday a survey by Amnesty International was published that showed 25% of the Birtish public still believed that women were responsible for rape if they wore 'provocative' clothing or acted in a flirtatious way. A couple of people in this thread (and i'm willing to bet a lot reading it) still think it would be a good idea to beat children (i.e. those under 18) in order to supposedly 'discipline' them, regardless of how we joke about carrots and sticks. What that represents is a total failure of social authority and a total bankruptcy of thought. Physical abuse only serves to instil the fear of aggression and violence into whoever suffers it. I'm not going to say i'm shocked, but the old argument that "it didn't do me any harm" is utterly disgusting each time it gets trotted out. Some, mostly Daily Telegraph readers, believe we should even bring back the birch and/or the death penalty. Blaming the media is about as much use as blaming a beer glass container for someone being drunk. Steve's story is interesting and cause for thought - before we all act like middle-class Thatcher snobs, perhaps we as a community should consider how we could accomodate the natural energy these kids have instead of trying to squash them into a box or serve them asbos. They need help, and if they are misbehaving then it is us who are failing them, not the other way round.

Re: concerns - Chris (23rd Nov 2005 - 18:43:48) Alex, your comments about the Torygraph being an influence on many of us in our opinions on this matter seem a bit at odds with your next comment where you absolve the media of all blame for anti-social behavioural traits. Before the community pitches in, let's first have some re-assurance that the parents of potential asbo kids are doing all they can to address the issue of unnacceptable behaviour in their children. I have a 16-year old son of my own and I am only too aware that parents are first and foremost the people who have to curb bad behaviour in their children and are primarily responsible for moral guidance. I hear enough stories about my son's peers (not his friends) to be convinced that some parents don't give a damn. The suggestion you have is a noble one and as you are so passionate about this community aid approach, do you have any suggestions as to where to start? If so will you take the lead?

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (24th Nov 2005 - 00:38:15) Chris - you have a very good point, and to some extent i agree. What i was trying to say in my rather unusually dramatic manner is that adults make a choice to be influenced by the political considerations of newspapers and the like, whereas children are assumed to be robots who re-enact what they see on a TV screen. Don't get me wrong, as i'm not naive enough to think that the media does not has an influence on children (why else would McDonalds market to kids?), but i just don't think its as dramatic as a lot of rabid fearmongers would have us believe. Its a way to sell more papers to frightened parents, and its a very convenient scapegoat for all manner of ills. Parental responsibility is a very difficult issue, and its not one i personally have the answer to. I don't know enough about exactly who should be teaching who what - how do we compensate for those not receiving adequate guidance at home without seeming to nanny those who are? Who defines what parents should teach and what instruction the school system should carry out? How do you police the parents of children exactly? The key issue for me here is how we realistically go about doing just that - its all well and good to say that parents need to do their part a lot better than they are, but where do we go afterwards? We can throw money at educational schemes, community awareness and god knows what, but thats more on the council tax bill and won't show results for a generation (if at all). So yes, i do have a few suggestions having been an obnoxious little turd myself, and yes i certainly would be willing to take the lead. Can't say for certain they will work, but with closer scrutiny they might give us somewhere to start. I'd be more than happy to elaborate in a new thread if you like, as posting more would be way off-topic.

Re: concerns - S (24th Nov 2005 - 09:42:47) I'm slightly suprised at you Alex. If children grow up to know if they go badly out of line they are going to get a smack or a slap (NOT A BEATING) and be disciplined they will show a lot more respect to adults and peoples property. I firmly beileve this. The politically correct people in this country should just bugger off in my opinion they are a waste of space and spend all their time fighting issues that might actually save our society. If a child/teen hangs a dog/puppy by a rope to a tree to it's death or fires pellet gun at a cat like in recent newspaper reports do you really think sitting them down and telling them it's wrong will help. It's too late. No way, they need good hard discipline from an early age and if that means a smack or a slap then so be it. Oh and it never did 95% of us any harm not just me. I don't condone abuse and every caring parent knows what the difference is. The uncaring ones just don't give a damn. The kids from these families use to be the odd ones out when I was kid now the tide has turned.

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (24th Nov 2005 - 12:52:39) I follow the law on this one - 'reasonable chastisement' is, in my opinion, a natural and essential last resort that parents should be able to use. From what i understand, its defined as a smack (or like) that does not leaving a lasting redness. You and i know why that law is strictly defined - because there are a minority of parents out there that go further and abuse their children. The people promoting these laws are doing so not because its PC, but because not all people can be trusted to be moderate and loving. Let me say now that i don't have kids, so i'm not one who can talk from his own experience. Of course i agree that sitting down and talking to kids who have committed horrors like you mention is too late, as i'm no tree-hugger. And i don't agree with what the Major government did in sending half of the teenage criminal population on jaunts overseas with taxpayer money. But equally, 'hard discipline' at that point is equally ineffective. God knows what happened to them that they could ever do things like that, but they weren't born bad. But herein lie the 2 points i am trying to make - if you need to use violence (or more than chastisement), then your authority has already failed. No child should ever have to fear aggression or physical consequences for their actions. And i would argue it has done a lot of harm - firstly you should never been subjected to it, by parents and/or schoolteachers. The harm is that you believe its acceptable now.

Re: concerns - Allan (25th Nov 2005 - 02:34:19) Alex, You are right in much of what you say, BUT, you are not a parent and really, because of that you simply cannot understand the domestic rules. Abuse of children is a regrettable fact in society, but because a minority of parents indulge in this does not mean that the majority should not reasonably chastise when necessary. The big issue is this; when a child crosses the line of behavoural acceptability, should a responsible and caring mum or dad indulge in gratuitus debate with the child as to how they can become a better person, or, would a smack focus their attention more effectively on how and why it is best not to repeat what they have done to so move those who love them the most to be so caringly radical. I totally agree that if you have to thump lumps out of your children to get them to conform to your model of acceptable behaviour, you have lost it. The problem is, Alex, that there is a growing sub- culture of youngsters who lack the guidance we have benefited from for a multitude of reasons and that ain't going to go away! Tough love is not to be sneered at by the P.C. brigade.

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (25th Nov 2005 - 12:23:57) Allan - i take your point that my opinion is only so valid, as i can imagine my own kids will run riot over me when they come along. I think that law hasn't had the publicity it needs - the problem would seem to be understanding where the line is. The newspapers are claiming it means you can't smack your kids when they've been naughty, but that's not the case. It says that as a society, you may reasonably chastise your child to a certain limit, and then you must stop. It defines acceptable and unacceptable. There are a lot of kids who, naturally, use this to their advantage as they know adults aren't able to physcially hurt them. That's a wonderful (if not veru frustrating) example of natural cunning. Perhaps my points might be easier to illustrate if put in the context of long-term behavioural control. What we've been talking about are short-term situations - one's where smacking and debating with them in done in a 5-10 min window (or longer) to control the situation. I'm saying that a longer-term strategy is needed. I personally believe that a lot of these kids' behaviour is a very natural set of urges being indulged in inappropriately - you may be able to call it a Darwinian point of view i guess. I learnt very recently that when my nephew was storming round the house causing chaos it was because he'd outgrown his old toys and needed new ones that suited his level of interest. If we can detach ourselves momentarily to look at what some of these kids are doing, we might be able to calm them down. At the root of all obnoxious teenage behaviour is peer group acceptance - nothing terrifies a teenager more than being laughed at by his or her friend(s). Often violent behaviour is a way of inappropriately expressing their natural anger at a painful home situation or a relative and is being taken out at the wrong place on the wrong person. So my suggestios are to a) identify what the behaviour is they are indulging in, and what urge they are trying to satisfy, and b) provide a controlled, cathartic means to channel it creatively and safely. An example of this, albeit slightly impractical, is getting boy racers to banger/rally racing instead of them tearing up car parks in the village - once that urge to race very fast is indulged, it is neutralised and hence is not indulged in inappropriately. This is been done in many placrs across the contry with great success.

Re: concerns - liz (28th Nov 2005 - 09:44:43) I note that Liphook's little darlings have, yet again, kicked down and broken several panels of someone's garden fence (and I believe the property concerned belongs to an elderly person) in the Midhurst Road.

Re: concerns - S (28th Nov 2005 - 09:53:59) Well Alex will want someone to sit them down and explain in a structured way why it's not nice to break an elderly persons fence. Then perhaps ask them never to do that again if they wouldn't mind.

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (28th Nov 2005 - 12:18:53) Or we could just hit them, which would work wonders! :)

Re: concerns - Chris (28th Nov 2005 - 18:42:55) ... or make them clear up the mess and repair the damage, including repairing the bus stop on The Avenue ...!

Re: concerns - toots (28th Nov 2005 - 18:54:13) Maybe it is the same creative, little thugs who keep vandalising the bus stop in The Avenue! Why do we put up with this pathetic and, quite frankly, mindless behaviour? I'm sick of trying to explain to my kids why these prats are causing so much damage!

Re: concerns - S (29th Nov 2005 - 16:30:39) but what can be done? If they are caught by the police they will get a caution at best. That leaves 2 options shouting at them and telling them off which will result in a whole series of foul obscenities thrown back at you or finally beating the hell out of them. I know which I prefer but not really a viable option.

Re: concerns - gr (29th Nov 2005 - 18:27:37) I could build some stock to put in the square After half an hour of the prats being embarresed in front of there so called freinds they might behave a little better Te He He

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (1st Dec 2005 - 17:12:27) Perhaps you could use high-frequency noise? "The New York Times is reporting on a device called the Mosquito invented by Howard Stapleton designed to drive teens away by emitting a high frequency noise at 75db. Apparently most older people can not hear the sounds, but teens can not stand it. Reports are that it works quite well, but some older people can hear it too. He found the prefect irritating sound by experimenting on his children." Driving Away Teens With High Frequency Noise

Re: concerns - Eneida (1st Dec 2005 - 18:03:04) Interesting you should mention using noise Alex. I've been reading about a city centre where they've been using classical music to drive teenagers away from certain spots. Apparently it works a treat!! I suppose something like Des O'Connors greatest hits might work as well. Eneida

Re: concerns - Thomas (1st Dec 2005 - 23:26:50) Or maybe a book club to keep them occupied... Thomas

Re: concerns - Eneida (2nd Dec 2005 - 08:12:17) Yes Thomas, a Book Club would be an excellent idea for the ones who can read! Why don't you start one? Eneida

Re: concerns - Alex Cameron (2nd Dec 2005 - 17:08:55) From the sounds of things those kids wouldn't be tough enough for the book club!

Re: concerns - Chris (20th Jan 2006 - 16:00:55) I was jumped by a gang of chavs at the station and in the square a few years ago. Can't say it's gotten any worse. Then again, my sister came back on Friday night and a 20-strong group of chavs were causing trouble; broke into the rail link bus and let the hand-break off/being generally abusive etc. Honestly, unless you're under, say, 25, this will not be a problem. The older residents seem very friendly. However, it's true - these laughable chavs who seem so eager to project an image of stupidity and worthlessness will give you hassle if you're anywhere near them on a Friday/Saturday night. I went to school with a lot of them and most of them got their GCSE's. Most of them have never lived outside of Surrey/Hampshire, which is amazing given their 'London' accents - think of an English man trying to do a German accent; same sort of thing! Anyway, on the whole Liphook isn't a bad place. I have two very good friends who have lived there for years and think it's ok. Word of warning, though - Liphook Police Station might as well be made of lego for all the use it is!

Re: concerns - boundtosound (22nd Jan 2006 - 13:42:37) At the risk of sounding stupid and ignorant,(again) will someone please elucidate on the meaning of 'chav' ?

Re: concerns - May (22nd Jan 2006 - 21:27:05) Hello Thank you that was an interesting read - my husband and I are also thinking of moving into the Liphook area we have a young 10 month old baby and i understand that the schools are excellent in the area M :)

Re: concerns - Sam (3rd Feb 2006 - 22:25:04) Wow! what a response! Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to our enquiry - we've read every entry with interest and appreciate your comments. Compared to our current location it still seems like a more peaceful haven to us!We'll be headed your way mid-February.

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