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Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - paul earwicker (28th Sep 2024 - 11:54:33) Hi, Received Postal Polling card, any views on the vote? Will it make any difference on final decisions, for our parish in the future?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Trevor Maroney (28th Sep 2024 - 15:15:28) What Plan? There isn't one. It's a document containing finely tuned 'holding policies' and consolidates [EHDC] existing local plan in the parish, according the Independent Examiner in Paragraph 7.16 of this report. In my view as it does not identify appropriate sites for future housing (especailly social), employment, and essential infrastructure to support a growing population we are wide open to developers selecting the sites for us. This is particularly important when EHDC fails to maintain a 5-year housing land supply. In such a situation, if planning permission is refused and the developer appeals the inspectors are highly likely to approve the application. This is based on previous appeals. Why the steering group has chosen this course of action and the Parish Council's decided to put the incomplete NDP to a referendum is unknown. I know, from personal experience in working of the B&L Parish Plan, how much hard work, time and effort has been spent in producing the policies, for which the group should be highly commended. As it stands, I will certainly be voting against it.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (29th Sep 2024 - 00:05:12) Volunteers have spent a lot of their time on this plan over the last 7 years. Neighbourhood development plans were not set up to install infrastructure, that is beyond their remit and would be rejected by the inspector if they were to have done this. Obviously they have also to be guided by EHDC who have already picked housing sites for Liphook in their emerging local plan. The benefit of voting yes for this plan, even if no sites have been picked out in the plan is that with a plan, more money is allocated to the Parish Council than without a plan. For example 25 percent as opposed to 15 per cent. It would be churlish to vote against the plan for that reason alone. If the Neighbourhood plan had picked sites, they would be choosing to add to the amount of new housing already in line for Liphook - when that would be over and above the housing allocation given by government to fulfil.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (29th Sep 2024 - 11:33:22) My belief when this was first introduced was that it was a plan by the people of the community as to what and where things should be put . IE where our allocated housing should go what infrastructure was needed what sort roads were needed to cope with the huge increase of traffic etc etc . And this plan would be by the majority votes of the community. And then presented to EHDC for them to use as a guide as to what the people of liphook would like to happen. The first problem came when voting for places to put houses the majority by far was bohunt manor and nothcotes plans . We were told that you can’t build houses in the national parks that caused an uproar from then on the whole plan has degenerated into farce not worth the paper it’s written on . The council will do what they want unfortunately our local council did not back the community with our thoughts.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - M (29th Sep 2024 - 12:18:58) Unfortunately the Neighbourhood Plan Steering group, both present members and past, were on a hiding to nothing from the outset. Allocating housing sites is a minefield with all interested parties having their own agenda, either for or against sites. Liphook has a massive problem with the inclusion of around 30% of the parish, including the ideal sites for new housing and infrastructure, in the SDNP, where development is restricted and the planning authority says no to all development if it can be sited elsewhere in the parish outside of the National Park (even if those locations are much further from facilities, less sustainable and give nothing to the community). The NDP group appear to have decided to take the (relatively) easy route and removed any form of housing allocation from the NDP, therefore making it a somewhat toothless plan. All housing will be allocated by EHDC and SDNP. The SDNP see no reason to allocated Liphook any housing as they don't see Liphook as a settlement within the park. EHDC are struggling to find enough sites for the present housing number in the 50% of the district they control for planning. When that figure increases by approximately another 70% due to the new governments insistence on the southeast being concreted over (our fault for voting conservative for too long so hard luck!) it will be a free for all with unsustainable, ill conceived housing estates popping up all over the place with no infrastructure. Well done to NDP steering group for getting it to referendum but unfortunately it will have no impact on any housing, and therefore infrastructure and facilities, within the parish. The only thing it will do, if it is passed (which I imagine it will as I can't imagine they'll get more than a handful of voters), is provide an extra 10% of CIL money to BLPC, which is the sole reason it was started 7 years ago! So Mr Croucher, and all subsequent Parish Council Chairs, have got what they wanted, well done to all involved.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (29th Sep 2024 - 13:45:59) Yes M you are right - from memory developers who did not like not being included in the presumptive plan threatened legal action if their site were not included. This is not the only plan to have had intimidating tactics used against them so yes of course they took the easy option and allocated no sites. It was never about infrastructure anyway, I tried to tell people many times on here the words Neighbourhood DEVELOPMENT plan means that is what it is about. If they had not been intimidated by developers they would have chosen a few small sites I am sure. The policies are in place though and the planning authorities now have to take some notice of them unless they conflict with National planning policy. Perhaps the public at the start did not ask the right questions and were promised too much by the original committee who did not fully understand what they could and could not do. I disagree that the “ whole community was outraged “ they did not choose to pick a site in the South Downs National Park- only the developers!

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (29th Sep 2024 - 17:09:26) Simple question - how much will this referendum cost us, the taxpayer?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (29th Sep 2024 - 17:11:19) Sorry Joe but I attended most of the original meeting along with a great many liphook people. All the questions filling in form etc doing the walk abouts . At the time of choosing places to put houses bohunt manor and Northcott land was the most voted for not only once but many times same result. The liphook community got fed up with the attitude of the people running the plan not listening to the majority. As it turns out if the Parrish council had backed the community and stood up to the national park people as now it seems they can be challenged because of all the errors they have made in poor settings of boundaries as liphook. The community has never been listened to throughout the years nothing changes. It was never the developers it was the location of the land at bohunt that could have given liphook a lot of infrastructure that NO other land could so we end up with houses in the wrong place. All the other development sites only do more damage to liphook but no one cares.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (29th Sep 2024 - 18:06:58) Russ no Neighbourhood plan anywhere had the power to challenge the boundary of the park ? I do not know where you heard that. I will challenge you also in your belief that everyone in Liphook wanted to see 600 houses built on the Bohunt land. I was also at the meetings and although a lot of consultations were held, Neighbourhood plans were never ever created anywhere to circumvent the normal planning rules? They are already anyway out of date and the new government are strengthening the protections for the National Park areas. Maybe the original committee did not understand the limitations of what they could achieve? Take it up with them if you feel mis - led. East Hampshire overspent on their legal bills trying to get the National Park to take higher housing numbers and they failed.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (30th Sep 2024 - 06:51:36) We moved to Liphook ten years ago and I remember there was a planning proposal being circulated by the owners of Bohunt Manor. Could anyone find the actual plan for this and post it please?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (30th Sep 2024 - 11:28:30) Joe I didn’t say all the people in liphook wanted housing on bohunt I said majority at every vote. As for building on national parks land and boundaries the last government it was discussed national park boundaries causing major problems around the country cutting parishes in two liphook was mentioned as an example. Making it difficult to locate housing in the best place. This government seems to want to build everywhere so time will tell. Yes we know you are dead against building on that strip of land but if you look at a map of liphook you can see it’s the best place to develop if we have to . As long as the people at EHDC planning do their job and make the developers toe the line and put in the infrastructure and facilities promised. The plans put in by bohunt and Northcott at the neighbourhood meeting were quite extensive and if they carried it out the village would benefit enormously. But as said they need to be monitored. That land is just sitting there doing nothing no one allowed on it NOT open to the public. 500 metres from our conservation area and could help to save that area. The national parks are great in what they do but mistakes have been made and they should realise this .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (30th Sep 2024 - 13:44:52) Having received my polling card, I took a moment to rapidly review the Plan and came to some conclusions. Firstly, while some will be aware of the Plan no-where did I find a quick and easy summary that could be useful to those who haven't read the full document. Secondly, if nothing else, cast an eye over p97-104 to get a sense of the items included in the Plan, and how 'deliverable' they actually are. Thirdly, and my own personal view, the Plan will only ever have a very limited impact. It's aspirations (housing, transport, sustainability) - all depend on higher levels of coordination and development within the parish - and do not have specific action plans. At best this is a framework, offering guidance that is not enforceable by any law.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (30th Sep 2024 - 13:49:50) I attended all these meetings and and helped out at one where the neighbourhood plan put forward the places for possible development. The Bohunt frontage was the prefered site beccause of the proposed allotments , medical centre, football ground and ring road. I have tried to find the planning that was put forward but have been unable to find it. Over the years it has been talked about on here and I did find this one from the past Local plan - planning and development in Liphook - Net (26th Jul 2011 - 11:40:24) If my memory serves me well regarding the meeting in Midurst the doctors were for this as well as our District councillors. A lot of people replied to the planning proposal in favour . Resistance came from the SDNP and some Parish councillors. Considering this area was not in the National Park once should have been discussed more. Since then housing has been built on areas that have become more sprawled out, the consequences being more traffic generated in the square. Perhaps Editor may be able to find the planning in the past threads.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (30th Sep 2024 - 14:11:02) Truth - no Neighbourhood anywhere is set into a legal framework, only the NPPF - and the plan is the best it can be under the circumstances of threats from developers. It is very sad but Parish councils do not have the money to take them on. The benefit of the plan is an extra 10 percent of money coming to the Parish council from new developments so surely it is better to have one for that reason alone? Voting against the plan means 7 years hard work down the drain.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (30th Sep 2024 - 14:25:41) Joe, I didn't say if I was voting for or against. I actually haven't made my mind up. It's very important to note that the monies you mention - Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL) funding - is totally and wholly dependent on new development coming into the Parish. It currently doesn't exist, and won't exist without new development. Even then the amount isn't assured and is highly variable (again, dependent on development) - as are the aspirations of the Plan that are linked to it. Hence my point that the Plan is 'at best' guidance and unenforceable in law.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (30th Sep 2024 - 15:01:39) I think the Parish Council have been getting CIL money through from the District Council the system has been in place for a number of years they have been getting 15 per cent rather than 25 per cent.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (30th Sep 2024 - 16:09:53) I found this: planningpublicaccess.southdowns.gov.uk/online-applications/files/8DB7840AA16F014C5D0E853FB4533EF2/pdf/SDNP_14_06426_OUT-LATE_SUBS_JUNE_999-09-002B_ILLUSTRATIVE_CONTEXT_MASTERPLAN-531449.pdf

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (30th Sep 2024 - 16:10:49) and this: planningpublicaccess.southdowns.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=NGKH4ATUL9Z00

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Disappointed (30th Sep 2024 - 17:06:19) Well looking at the links it looks like the sos bohunt manor group with the Parrish councillors that belonged to the group denied us a lot of infrastructure and facilities back then. Hope their happy.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (30th Sep 2024 - 18:24:54) I am a relative 'newbie' but what are the other options

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (30th Sep 2024 - 19:32:16) It is interesting to note on the refusal letter from the planning authority on the Bohunt application ( paragraph 5 ) where it goes into detail about the promised new facilities, that there was no confidence on the part of the planning authority that the promises were going to be forthcoming. I myself questioned the developer about that some time ago and was told that all they were going to do was allocate some land for the facilities not give any money towards getting those facilities built. So obviously I am not the only one who reads the developer’s promises very carefully!

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (30th Sep 2024 - 20:52:12) The letter from SOS Bohunt was sent a long time after the refusal of the application. It was the planning policies of the National Park which led to the refusal if you read the refusal letter -nothing to do either SOS Bohunt or the Parish Council. There were no facilities on offer from the developer.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Disappointed (1st Oct 2024 - 09:57:10) Joe the sos group was set up when the first planning application went in to try and stop it . That’s when some councillors were involved but as soon as it became common knowledge they distanced themselves from it . And that’s before the boundaries were set and when the meeting at midhurst was held to set the boundaries the liphook people attended councillors as well weren’t allowed to speak total sell out. If that development had gone ahead the boundary would have been set the other side of that strip of land where it should have been to protect the wet lands. Then liphook would have been out of the national park. It didn’t matter if we were in or out but not half in and half out .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (1st Oct 2024 - 15:00:44) Clive it’s a mine field goes back years before the national parks set their boundaries. Liphook was quite a small village with the A3 running through it lovely place still is . Then we got the bypass HCC revamped the square saying it could be pedestrianised as there would not be much traffic only local as you can see that didn’t happen. We have grown to a town and the area around has gone mad . All the traffic has to come through liphook to access the A3 even some coming from liss because they have trouble getting on to the A 3 at the roundabout. Bohunt school was built in the middle of liphook again against public option so made things worse. So here we are huge amount of traffic crossing the square was said some years ago that it was at capacity especially at school time. HCC highways suggested 5 ring road routes possibly to incorporate in building developments the first opportunity came at the longmoor road development wimpys 600 houses a road from headly road bridge to the new roundabout longmoor road around the development again not implemented by EHDC planning a very angry meeting at pens place . The next suggestion was a road from the longmoor roundabout to a new roundabout in Portsmouth road opposite station road with a rear entrance to bohunt school so all traffic for the school would be by the new road. Very good plans were put forward by Northcott development but of course it is now in the national park so we are stuck with years of very poor planning and people that have their heads in the sand and the sad thing is our lovely conservation area is suffering and we are fast losing our lovely place to live. Just a short remit of the problem.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (1st Oct 2024 - 16:01:20) There was a judicial review about the boundary some 15 years ago I think and the conclusion was that it should not be moved just because developers may benefit. The enquiry cost the tax payer many millions so they will not be doing that again in a hurry. Wherever the boundary had been set though would have caused problems - other communities are in the same position as Liphook being half in and half out, they accept it.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Pete (1st Oct 2024 - 16:13:30) Turnout ?10% ? Waste of money... There is no summary of the NBPL that 10% would read and understand and would be tasked with reading.. Waste of funds and especially the time put in by good people over the years of contributing to what they believed would be service to Liphook.. The many pages will be cast aside by the big players and those with interests sadly..

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (1st Oct 2024 - 17:14:34) Thank you Russ, I didn't know any of this. Useful background. The link to the Bohunt Manor application seems to show that the vast majority of letters support the proposals from that time ten years ago., something like ten supporters for every one against. To me, it looks very good, with a large park, which presumably is for all the public ? and especially the allotments, which I have seen many times from the Links footpath but seems to be unused. It looks like there is also a football ground near the school, but I am not sure if this is the existing school pitch? Thanks again

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Dave B (1st Oct 2024 - 17:38:36) Lot of NIMBY's in Liphook. If a detailed look was taken, most support a plan where the proposed new homes are far away from their home. You know who you are........

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (1st Oct 2024 - 17:43:50) Yes Clive it was a good plan but all the facilities ie football pitch doctors surgery cricket pitch had to be funded. The Northcott development was great open spaces for the public to use rear entrance to bohunt open air classrooms and of course the road to link to Portsmouth road. Yes all this depends on houses but if you put houses anywhere else you get nothing in fact more damage to our square. Look at what liphook received for the 600 houses down longmoor road sweet nothing. This is what I mean very poor planning decisions.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Disappointed (1st Oct 2024 - 18:19:13) Joe as I said the councils all over the country have complained bitterly to the last government for being split in two making it impossible to locate homes in the best place. Liphook was held as a prime example. As said the national parks are very good at saving our open spaces but mistakes have been made and they should hold their hands up and do something about it and negotiate with the community’s that are not happy with their lot .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Ian (1st Oct 2024 - 20:01:55) Can someone explain in simple terms what we are voting for? I haven't got a clue!

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (1st Oct 2024 - 20:03:06) Now the new government have come to power they will have given the SDNPA new housing targets to meet but they will build in communities which are totally with the Park as they did in Liss.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Disappointed (1st Oct 2024 - 21:06:20) Who said so Joe you. They may just build houses where they are best to benefit a community.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (1st Oct 2024 - 21:28:57) Joe your last post stated that the new government would want the SDNPA to build more houses in the park I think that’s what you implied. But you said they would only build in community’s that are in the park such as liss . So you have been saying they can’t build on the park in liphook bohunt land so how is that land different from any other? . You are correct this government will demand to build on land that is available ie not used as bohunt .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (1st Oct 2024 - 21:32:59) Disappointed- if you read the reason for refusal on the SDNPA website one of the reasons for refusal of the Bohunt application was that it would not benefit communities totally “within the Park” which the settlement of Liphook is not.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (2nd Oct 2024 - 07:43:35) Having read the SDNPA’s local plan which I presume you have as well Russ - Liphook is not mentioned at all because it is not a settlement within the Park. Liss and Greatham are totally different cases because the village centres in both cases are within the Park. The village settlement of Liphook is not. The Park needs any benefits deriving from a large development being built to benefit the community which is also totally within the park- the non built up areas of liphook and also in East Hants probably comprise about 20 houses at the most, against the settlement of Liphook which has at least 6-7 thousand dwellings.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (2nd Oct 2024 - 10:16:33) Well Joe you have hit the nail on the head. You say house’s can be built in the park but only to benefit communities in the park that’s the big problem throughout the country and what councils are communities are complaining about. Where Parrishs are split as liphook development can’t be put in the right place to benefit that community just because it’s not all in the park as liphook. You have a boundary approximately 500 metres from the centre of our town but we can’t develop that land for the benefit of our community that’s the BIG problem. The park needs to look at every situation and work with the local council and community to benefit that community whether it’s in or out of the park not be draconian about it. After all we all have to live on this planet so they should be making efforts to help communities not make it harder. Just think about it 500 metres on the other side of the boundary 600 houses built no benefit to liphook says it all.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (2nd Oct 2024 - 14:11:05) Hi Russ for the reasons I have outlined before the Park will probably not allow 600 houses on the periphery of a settlement which is in a different planning authority? They have no reason to work with a community which is out of their planning area. Also the Notthcott proposal is a joint one with Bohunt and having read that carefully they only propose the same thing that Bohunt did which is to allocate land for facilities not actually PROVIDE the facilities. They have now actually changed the application to allocate land for a proposed nursing home. They have dangled a carrot to contribute money towards HCC building a road but I do foresee that would be a private access only road. Anyway they have submitted their whole application in principal to the SDNPA who are updating their local plan.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (2nd Oct 2024 - 15:13:08) Joe you have highlighted it again the huge problem all over the country the national parks have their planning they put their boundaries in and that’s the problem as said before SPLITTING communities in half and they won’t sit down with local communities and see if a problem can be sorted they are causing a lot of hardship and resentment throughout the country. But we will see if they come to their senses before the government steps in .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (2nd Oct 2024 - 15:37:07) Joe Where did you get the 600 houses figure for the Bohunt proposal ? Are you not mixing this development with the Highfield one which was trying for 600 houses and no infrastructure. ? The Bohunt development was much smaller and more sympathetic to the village and I believe had Kevin McClouds input.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (2nd Oct 2024 - 16:56:19) Scrolling down the Link I put up earlier I found this: [link can't be accessed directly - it is the second to last entry at the very bottom of the link posted earlier] This must have some relevance?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (2nd Oct 2024 - 20:51:16) Hi Clive cannot see the doc so perhaps you could give a clue which document you mean? Hi AR I think the Bohunt land had previously proposed more houses in a previous application so yes I may have got the amount wrong, but the previous application ( which was also refused )included the McCloud connection. I investigated the Kevin McCloud endorsement and found that he had been paid by the company who were doing the publicity for the Bohunt application. Having read the latest planning committee minutes from the SDNPA there is reference to the Labour Party’s changes to the NPPF. These policy changes are actually going to give National Parks enhanced protection against over development. They have just allowed a new estate in Lewes town centre to be built on the site of a former bus station. So you see they do allow new developments in the towns?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (2nd Oct 2024 - 21:59:19) That’s good Joe if they were good enough to allow homes in the centre of Lewis town perhaps they will allow houses in the centre of liphook town much needed.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (2nd Oct 2024 - 22:43:53) Russ the centre of Liphook is probably considered the square and comes under EHDCs planning not the SDNPA authority. Coytes yard I think it is has just been built and there are flats or houses going up on the old Allianz building. Lots of building work going on at the moment.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - steve (3rd Oct 2024 - 07:47:00) Hi Joe was Kevin McCloud preparing a Grand Design documentary for the Bohunt Manor land? You say: "I investigated the Kevin McCloud endorsement and found that he had been paid by the company who were doing the publicity for the Bohunt application" It would be helpful if you could post up the evidence for all to see

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (3rd Oct 2024 - 08:40:47) Joe I have lived here for over 80 years with 6 generations I do no where the centre of liphook is and most of what goes on the coyotes yard was some time ago yes building next to it for over sixty’s and it used to a big builders yard back in the old days. Joe don’t know how old you are but you seem to spend most of your time on this site and doing a lot of research don’t you have a job to do . Because it seems you don’t know that much about liphook. Our play ground was most of the housing estates around liphook when it wasn’t split in two by the national parks.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - joe (3rd Oct 2024 - 08:44:19) Hi Steve - no Kevin MCloud had a seperate business (which went bust) as well as his TV job which was to go into partnership with those who wanted to add the Kevin McCloud famous name to housing. I did not keep screen shots of the research I did into Geriwell estate etc and the previous planning application previous to the 2016 application it was all too long ago. His name was being bandied about by the publicity firm who did promotional work for the Bohunt Manor application at the time. Also the Princes Trust operated a similar consultancy which was also a very commercial venture offering link ups etc and payments for use of the name. Just normal business practice.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Editor (3rd Oct 2024 - 09:09:12) Grand Designs presenter’s company has yet to deliver on promises while investors are facing up to 97% losses theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/sep/16/kevin-mccloud-firms-development-resembles-bomb-site-say-locals

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (3rd Oct 2024 - 10:44:12) Hi Russ I am retired but not as old as you I have been retired nearly 20 years now. I was not born in Liphook but does that mean that only those born in Liphook know anything ? I have lived in the area for nearly 40 years. If you read the Kevin McCloud link about the development in Lovedean - that one was being touted around by the Bohunt developers at the time as what they would do on the Bohunt Manor land with Kevin McClouds’ input. It all seems to be a similar plan to the first big Bohunt Application. Glad that it was refused for Bohunt.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (3rd Oct 2024 - 19:06:39) Joe that explains how you have the time to post a lot . I wasn’t born here war saw to that but did come back in 1946 . It doesn’t matter how long you have lived here it’s a fantastic place live . Yes I seen a great many changes some good but unfortunately many bad. Just still confused as to why you’re so against development on that strip of land. If it was handled correctly it would benefit Liphook enormously .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (4th Oct 2024 - 19:34:26) This is what I found: To whom it may concern, Regarding Bohunt Park possible development: In October 2011 The Prince’s Foundation for Building Community undertook a scoping study to look at the frontage lands of Bohunt Manor in Liphook. The Foundation was perfectly aware that the land was within the edge of the drawn boundary of the South Downs National Park but were interested in exploring the site due to its proximity to the village centre, the railway station and local shops. It is appreciated that generally the National Park boundaries are drawn for the extensive designation areas with detailed examination of the landscape and recreational interest; but in this instance the local conditions appear at odds with the general quality of the protected landscape. The boundary has also been drawn without regard to the existing settlement pattern and the most obvious direction of growth for the village. Whilst undertaking the scoping study and design workshop, the Foundation inspected all the other potential development sites which have come forward to accommodate the current housing needs in the village and concluded that Bohunt Park represented the most accessible and sustainable option for the growth requirements of Liphook. The emerging concept from the workshop was the potential for a sensitive extension to the village providing a gateway to the National Park from the existing village centre as well as the railway station. It was clear that in order to build in such a sensitive location the standard of architectural and landscape design would have to be that much higher than normal development but that could indeed be a positive when faced with alternative options for growth around the village. In the last few years the Prince’s Foundation has reviewed the design development and found the subsequent work to have greatly enhanced the original vision. Views from the edge of the village into the National Park have been respected and a new green running from the park to the northeast connecting into the primary movement network have been provided. The development would also connect well to new sports facilities and the local school as well as providing a rich diversity of green infrastructure, a medical centre and farm shop. Whilst it is fully recognised that the local community must be fully consulted and engaged in the process it is the Foundation’s view that this scheme has the potential to create a high quality development that could set a benchmark for new village development as well as new development on the boundaries of National Parks where there is often pressure for growth. Regards, Ben Bolgar Senior Director, The Prince’s Foundation for Building Community

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Clive (4th Oct 2024 - 19:38:52) ...also I noted that around nine out of ten voted for Bohunt in the 2015 planning application which, in democratic terms, should mean a lot. In truth, there are simply hundreds of documents to go through on the file on the link I found, but the whole thing is puzzling for a newbie.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (4th Oct 2024 - 20:32:46) Well Clive you’re a newbie and I’m an oldie but I take my hat off to you as they say your research is fantastic. As I said it’s very complicated down the years but my opinion is no other site can give the infrastructure we need. In fact all the other sites will damage our community . Thanks newbie .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (5th Oct 2024 - 09:00:31) The Princes Trust for the “building community “ is a business consultancy arm of the Princes trust not an independant charity, they were paid to produce this. Clive, the planning rules for the National Park are far different to those of a normal area and Bohunt Manor comes under that jurisdiction. Think of it as an enhanced version of a conservation area which is afforded much higher protection in planning terms. Although Russ might disagree, that areas definition is countryside as it is outside the settlement boundary. The National Park does allow building within the town centres of their settlements. Liphook town centre is not one of their settlements within their planning authority. If you looked at all the documents you must have also read the refusal document too. As I said earlier, the National Park is currently analysing the applications to build and Bohunt is being looked at with all the rest so we should know whether they are going to allow houses there or not, probably before the end of the year as they had I think over 500 sites to look at. They were also given higher housing numbers to find so they may be more flexible about it now.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (5th Oct 2024 - 20:58:35) Well Joe as you mentioned me I still can’t see what that strip of land has any importance to the national parks it’s not open to the public it’s not got any important wildlife it’s just very little used farm land. Yes your right if the national parks people had done their homework and NOT split our Parrish in two things would be different as said all in or all out. That’s the major problem created by very poor boundary setting.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve Bamford (6th Oct 2024 - 08:17:23) An interesting thread, especially the points debated between Russ and Joe. I think, however, the letter from the Princes Trust, unearthed by Clive, is highly pertinent and hits the nail on the head (regardless of whether that organisation was paid or otherwise) - it comes across as objective, thorough and authoritative and rings true! For me the 'killer' points in the letter are: " proximity to the village centre the railway station and local shops " and " the local conditions appear at odds with the general quality of the protected landscape " and. " The boundary has also been drawn without regard to the existing settlement pattern and the most obvious direction of growth for the village " and " Whilst undertaking the scoping study and design workshop, the Foundation inspected all the other potential development sites which have come forward to accommodate the current housing needs in the village and concluded that Bohunt Park represented the most accessible and sustainable option for the growth requirements of Liphook. and finally " ..... it is fully recognised that the local community must be fully consulted and engaged in the process it is the Foundation’s view that this scheme has the potential to create a high quality development that could set a benchmark for new village development as well as new development on the boundaries of National Parks where there is often pressure for growth " To me it is simply a 'no brainer' and, given the apparent local support for the previous planning application for this land, democracy and common sense should prevail.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - M (6th Oct 2024 - 09:38:27) Well "Russ" and "Joe" have dominated this thread but they do appear to put forward the two opposing views for any future development of Liphook.......... and why the Neighbourhood Plan Steering Group decided it was way too difficult to end up with community agreement on any housing sites. You could imagine what would happen if they decided to include any sites in the NDP, they could find themselves in the situation where the NDP could actually be rejected at referendum ...... a highly embarrassing outcome and, I believe, something that has not happened before. If Liphook is to have any new housing than it is obvious where it should go, but because of a line drawn on a map, and that is the only reason, it can't go there. Russ mentions the event that EHDC ran to get public opinion on where new development should be sited, and I found the report generated after the event: cdn.easthants.gov.uk/public/documents/LiphookLIPS.pdf Page 16 shows the result of the residents (at least those that took an interest, visited the event and voted) votes on where they thought the best place for development should go, and it's pretty obvious where that was! I attended the event and remember a conversation with the representatives of both EHDC and SDNPA. They both said that if the whole of Bramshott and Liphook Parish was either fully in or fully out of the SDNP then the Bohunt/Northcott Land would be developed, as it was the most sustainable and logical area. To me that spoke volumes. Liphook is, and will continue to be, suffering from poor developments due to the fact it is a split planning parish. Both authorities don't appear to want to sit down and formulate a cohesive plan for the future of our community, both in terms of housing and infrastructure. The Neighbourhood Development Plan was an opportunity to do that, but unfortunately they too have decided not to go down that "too difficult" route so we are left with a toothless money generating document. I don't blame them as they are volunteers who were on a hiding to nothing from the outset. Should we all vote for it? To be honest there's no reason not to but will it make a difference to the future development of Liphook..... certainly NOT!

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (6th Oct 2024 - 09:51:21) I am getting deja vue with this thread. This subject was discussed years ago when the proposed development was put forward. It was the best proposal for the village and in my mind was sabotaged. As to why is still a concurring thought. I lived on the corner of Station Road in the late 70's and this land has remained barren ever since. It is not counrtyside in the full meaning of the sense but arable land left untouched. We have swathes of common land around us for our pleasure. If this had been allowed, alot of our problems could have been sorted in Liphook. Most likely it would have prevented the huge build up of traffic on the Longmoor Road, to which new people to Liphook have found out the hard way. Why was Newtown created if they were not going to put developments near there? No infustructure down The Longmoor Road like this. So to those that say it is in the park, well what have they done to make this land productive ? Nice walks, farming, something for the people of Liphook ? No, absolutely nothing. That development had the potential for sympathetic housing, football pitch, allotments, medical centre and ring road. near the station for commuting, and near shops which would have been even better for trade. This was thwarted mainly by the the parish councillors at the time. They knew the feelings of the people in Liphook and ignored it. The proposal was more keenly favoured here by the amount of peoples input at neighbourhood planning and other meetings.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Simon (6th Oct 2024 - 09:57:17) I've read this thread through a couple of times and gone to the Parish website to see the plan. I am not sure I am any the wiser other than Trevor's point of view. 1. What is the referendum question? Have I missed it? Is it simply to vote to accept or refuse the plan? 2. It is called a plan. I can't see a plan. To me it seems like a strategic set of nice policies. Laudable but no detail. Can anyone offer a tangible view to aid decision making, please?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (6th Oct 2024 - 11:04:56) Simon. I would say it is a pointless exercise, as any neighbourhood plan has been disregarded every time. This seems to be the first time people have voted on it in this way. How much has this cost, and only to be ignored ?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (6th Oct 2024 - 11:05:58) Sorry to have posted a lot . But when you have lived here most of your life and seen the complete mess up of planning it doesn’t bode well. We have a fantastic village I call it a village because it’s still got that feeling and our community is second to none. That’s what is so sad the community that came out and voted as said at the EHDC meeting were totally ignored that’s what caused the rage . Everything has been said so perhaps this time someone will listen. Sorry again but I love the place and hope common sense will prevail.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - M (6th Oct 2024 - 14:01:13) @ Simon. You asked a couple of questions and this would be my opinion. 1. What is the referendum question? Have I missed it? Is it simply to vote to accept or refuse the plan? The referendum takes place on the 23rd October and will be a straight forward vote Yes or No to the Bramshott and Liphook Neighbourhood Plan as published. If you are registered to vote and live in the Parish you should receive your voting papers from EHDC soon. 2. It is called a plan. I can't see a plan. To me it seems like a strategic set of nice policies. Laudable but no detail. As I have mentioned it isn't a true Development Plan, but as you point out just some very nice sounding Policies to guide any development that might (will) take place. It in no way steers new development to sustainable or welcomed locations and doesn't include any policies for improvements in infrastructure (something that isn't in the remit of a NDP anyway). Most of the policies are cut and paste policies from existing planning policies at national and district level anyway. Can anyone offer a tangible view to aid decision making, please? No. It's your choice (much in the way of any Yes/No referendum). Make your own mind up from the information you can find. As I mentioned there really isn't anything to vote against so it comes down to whether you're happy that BLPC end up with 10% more CIL money when the new houses are built ......albeit in the wrong locations and giving nothing to the community! Others have enquired how much this has cost. I believe that most of the costs have come from grants from central and local government with very little cost to the parish council. All the steering group are volunteers.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (6th Oct 2024 - 16:27:07) Voting no on the plan is not going to achieve anything- you are denying the parish the extra money which becomes due when the majority vote yes. Rejecting a set of policies is not going to result in a development going ahead at Bohunt Manor. As I said earlier on here I personally spoke to the owners when the first application went in about how they were going to deliver the infrastructure and they said they were only providing land towards other people building and paying for it? Don’t forget it was the developers who forced the Neighbourhood plan down the route of not picking sites because it was more than one set of developers who came forward to potentially build, the ones not picked threatened court action, and they were also warned of the dangers of picking one huge site over another by both EHDC and The SDNPS planning authority. Are another group of people going to volunteer to come forward and prepare another plan? I think not.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Trevor Maroney (7th Oct 2024 - 10:06:53) Without a community agreed sustainable DEVELOPMENT PLAN what is the extra money going to be spent on? Who decides? Or is that the next "bone of contention?"

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (7th Oct 2024 - 13:29:51) At the risk of sounding flippant Trevor probably the same people who are deciding to close the waste facility in Bordon despite there being a petition signed by over 1000 people against it. The neighbourhood plan steering group were told not to pick any large sites for development, because there was a risk that site had already been earmarked by them in the emerging local plan which is in the process of being prepared by EHDC. The Parish Council has not got the funds to fight a developer who threatens legal action if their site is not picked.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (7th Oct 2024 - 14:38:53) At the risk of sounding flippant Trevor probably the same people who are deciding to close the waste facility in Bordon despite there being a petition signed by over 1000 people against it. The neighbourhood plan steering group were told not to pick any large sites for development, because there was a risk that site had already been earmarked by them in the emerging local plan which is in the process of being prepared by EHDC. The Parish Council has not got the funds to fight a developer who threatens legal action if their site is not picked.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (7th Oct 2024 - 14:43:21) Wasn’t going to post anymore because everything has been said. But I’m not quite with you about choosing sites do you mean the neighbourhood plan can’t choose what sites the community wants because EHDC might have chosen them as well? . That seems ridiculous because if they both chose the same site then that site should be the number one site. And how do you no this seems very odd . It’s quite obvious where the community want development to take place to help the infrastructure but everything has been said about that it seems that EHDC wants to have the chicken farm against the public vote it was thrown out years ago as totally unacceptable and would damage liphook square and also can’t support a sangs . Anyway what we say won’t count EHDC take no notice of the community that’s why the neighbourhood plan will go straight in the bin they haven’t listened before so why change a habit of a lifetime.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (7th Oct 2024 - 16:41:12) I agree Russ we have talked around the issues enough suffice it to say my knowledge comes from my own extensive research on neighbourhood plans, which came into being at least 20 years ago and having friends on the staff of various local authorities in the area.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Becky W. (7th Oct 2024 - 17:35:57) Hi Joe I have been reading your posts about the Bohunt developers and you keep on saying that they were only offering land though not building the facilities. Well that is true, however my kids were involved with LUFC and we (LUFC that is) were DELIGHTED to be offered land for a new permanent home for the club FREE OF CHARGE. WHERE ELSE WOULD WE GET THE LAND AND NO OTHER BUILDER OFFERED US ANYTHING, EVER. So much so we went along en masse to the parish meeting demanding that they supported the Bohunt developers. Likewise, the GPs were being offered their land free of charge by the Bohunt developers for them to build the new medical centre there. Go and ask them if you like. In fact, the GPs sent a representative to the Bohunt Manor planning application meeting WHO SPOKE IN FAVOUR of the proposals. I think you are being unfair in criticising the developer for offering land free of charge for LUFC and others, including the allotments to the community. I agree with the summary Steve Bamford has outlined above from the princes trust. What a shame this was refused. What do we have to look forward to now? Are you connected to the chicken farm developer by any chance? My understanding was that LUFC could not afford to prepare the pitch, add the lighting, buildings and access road required. Becky, you might like to confirm that and get back to us. .

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Simon (7th Oct 2024 - 18:17:31) To those who responded to my plea, thank you. I have my invitation to vote paper. It is what spurred me to post. A referendum needs to ask a specific question in order for people to reach a decision. That is why I asked if I had missed something. I still can only assume, which seems from this thread is what others are doing, that it is to accept or reject a plan. Joe suggests that rejecting the plan would be to deny further money coming into the parish. There would seem to be downsides to accepting this money. I recognise that fellow parishioners have give of their valuable time and done a lot of work. I applaud their dedication and offer my personal thanks. Plans to me, should contain something tangible, be costed with timescales and nominations for those responsible for the actions. I have not seen such a plan. Therefore I do not see anything other than controversy on which to vote. If I am wrong, then please be kind enough to clue me in.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (7th Oct 2024 - 22:03:43) In answer to Becky, any developments on the scale of that proposed at bohunt would actually be expected to supply land for public facilities? When the Sainsburys development got permission the developers of the site were forced to build the millennium hall. What people forget is a donation of land is one thing but actually raising funds and financing the building of it is very tough. The doctors surgery could not raise the money from the NHS to fund the new building or new practice, nor could the football club as I recall? It is not just the building of it it is the ongoing maintenance costs of the new facilities as well. Please re read the refusal letter about the Bohunt site? The planning authority was not convinced that the promised infrastructure would be funded by anyone which proved to be the case.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Old resident (8th Oct 2024 - 10:05:07) Think we are all missing the point all of the huge problems have been caused by the national parks with their boundaries setting as said by others all in or all out then our allotted housing could be put in the most advantageous place. In my opinion the most important part of planning is to conserve our community and what we have. The conservation square tops the list without a heart the village becomes dormant useless just a place to sleep. The national parks people have not done their job properly and come and seen the mess the have created and consulted with the community. They do a fantastic job all over the country but mistakes have been made and they should be big enough to resolve them.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - M (8th Oct 2024 - 15:55:43) Joe (is that Joseph, Josephine or possibly even Jeanette? ...but I respect your anonymity, as I'm sure you respect mine) you seem to forget that the Bohunt Manor site has planning permission for the access road/roundabout, the Medical Centre, Allotments and the Football/Cricket pitches. Permission was granted in 2010 under applications 39366/010 an 39366/011 and because they cleared land and dug some holes that permission is still active. We all know that none of it was ever going to get built without houses, and thanks to a bit of help from SOS Bohunt and the head in the sands attitude from SDNPA the houses were refused. Liphook awaits the new draft local plan from EHDC and the revised local plan from the SDNPA to see where they will allocate more housing. Possibly double the previous plans amount thanks to our new Government. Who knows we may not only get 600 from EHDC but also 600 from SDNPA? ...... but unfortunately the NDP will have no impact on any of them :-(

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve Bamford (8th Oct 2024 - 16:06:39) Well what an interesting thread! If we agree that the points made by the Prince's Foundation - (see my entry 6th Oct above) namely that the Bohunt Manor site is unequivocally the very best location to accommodate the expansion of the village, including providing land for facilities needed, then we should surely all be working to ensure such an outcome? Given that funding for facilities will be an issue wherever they are located, and assuming the facilities such as doctors' surgery, football pitches or allotments are actually needed, we are left with asking ourselves where best to locate these and then to explore ways of funding them to ensure that they are actually built. In my sphere of work (banking, though now retired) there is usually a funding solution to this type of problem if we put our minds to it. Should the facilities, for example, be provided at Chiltley Lane, the Chicken Farm site or at Bohunt Manor. Objectively, it is a 'no brainer' - the Bohunt site wins hands down due to its central location, as explained in the Prince's Foundation letter. Could Joe please advise where his loyalties lie; with what is undoubtedly best for the community in Liphook or some other agenda?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (8th Oct 2024 - 17:20:20) Just to say I agree with Simon. There hasn't been enough information provided to help voters reach informed decisions. Yes, they can go online and search for it, but our household hasn't received any 'reading age 7' material to help with that. But having reviewed what I could find online, again I agree that a lot of effort has gone into it, but imho it's a wordy framework with minimal teeth, requires a number of other factors to be in place, and is not a binding document.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (8th Oct 2024 - 17:46:04) @ M. I see what you did there Joe.... Jeanette @ Steve. This was always the best place for a development, but it was thwarted by a few parish councillors and SOS Bohunt. What exactly what were they saving ? I am sure had the medical centre been allowed, the sale of the surgeries would have been a start for the funding. Lipkook residents saw the potential, but who are we that we actually get listened to ? So I see no point in voting now, when we were disregarded in previous years on the neighbourhood plan.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Sally G (8th Oct 2024 - 17:52:45) Previously it was stated that no further developments would be considered in the Liphook area until a ring road was constructed first so as to link London, Haslemere and Portsmouth Roads so as to provide relief for the village centre. Greedy developers come in make promises to adhere to the planning stipulations only to time and time again not meet with their planning restrictions due to profit. How about this time the infrastructure is provided first and then the developements. To be fair to Bordon the road was constructed initially before the houses. We need to say “No” to these locusts aka developers!

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Trevor Maroney (8th Oct 2024 - 18:03:01) The Referendum on the 23 October is not asking us where housing should be, or not, built. We are being asked to vote for a none existant 'PLAN' supported and submitted by the Parish Council. It is, if I may say so, incompleted 'home work' and will not protect anybody from housing being built on sites already selected by EHDC. What signal are we sending to future generate if we only accept answers to the easy questions? In other words, these arguments are going to rumble on and on with each nimby group being unsupported by the rest of the community when planning applications arrive that will affect their neighbourhood. These disagreements, reiterated throughout these postings, will not make a blind bit of difference to the outcome. Whereas a completed Neighbourhood Development Plan would direct developers to those sites which the community believe can help make the whole village more sustainable. I believe that the Parish Council should cancel the referendum and resubmit a fully functional and sustainable Development Plan once completed! Policies on their own are ineffective when selecting sites. A plan which the majority of residents can support. Trevor [Caveat: You should note that many posters have neither fully identified themselves nor declared if they have any vested interest, financial or otherwise, in the sites they believe should have been put forward. For the record I have been a parish and district councillor and served on both the planning and finance committees. I also spent 5 years working on and publishing the B&L Parish Plan.]

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (8th Oct 2024 - 20:16:31) Sorry to disappoint but I have no hidden agenda -I have only ever sought to explain planning as it applies to our part of Liphook, Merely wishing things or boundaries are different is not enough. I do think mistakes were made by both local authorities by not giving out enough explanations to the local community as to why planning decisions have been taken and leading them to believe they have a real “ choice”. As we all know, the new government need to find many more houses and whether or not that will lead to a large housing estate at Bohunt who knows? As soon as I know anything I will post on here.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (9th Oct 2024 - 06:54:34) It is naive in the extreme to think that another group of unpaid volunteers in Liphook are going to spend 7 years preparing a plan when the new labour government have stated that those areas without plans in place in the near future will all have plans imposed upon them. The neighbourhood plan system is already out of date, funding is not going to be found to prepare a new one. The money already spent by the taxpayers of Liphook will be totally wasted just because someone thinks a better one will be achieved. The same problems of blackmail by big developers will occur. I care that the hardworking volunteers who worked on the plan will be bitterly disappointed if the plan gets rejected. It would be a first in the history of neighbourhood plans. In response to Alison Ryan, the doctors were the ones trying to raise the money to find financing for the move. They approached the NHS for backing and finance and were refused. Doctors do not own the premises of their own surgeries, their individual or joint pension funds own the premises which includes retired partners as well. All parties to that pension fund would have to agree to sell the building and fund the new building. They did not all agree to that. It was not achievable either without NHS backing for the move which they did not have. They would otherwise have been set up entirely with private practices only.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (9th Oct 2024 - 11:16:47) Just a recap Joe you haven’t said as to why you’re so dead against building on bohunt Northcott land . You have been asked several times but dodged the questions. The land is so obviously the best place to develop against all others even if there is not as much infrastructure as hoped. It seems we are going to have a lot of houses put upon us soon if we don’t put them in the best place we will all suffer. None of the other sites that EHDC are proposing are good for liphook until there is a road system to get traffic around the square. There SHOULD be NO development on the other side of the square ie chicken farm side until such a system is installed.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (9th Oct 2024 - 18:19:48) It is more complicated than you think Russ- if the principle of building a large housing estate there is established, then it is “open sesame “ to build large estates anywhere in countryside outside settlement boundaries of the SDNPA area - the criteria for granting permissions are far different in the National Parks, the overiding ethos of their local plan is that it is firstly secondly thirdly “ landscape led,” other principles have to be adhered to such as the dark skies policy - so that principle would be overturned. They might as well scrap the whole of the Park. It is like being a little bit pregnant - there is no such thing. Also as the government have given the local authorities 80 percent more new houses to find in EHDC they are going to be building everywhere else as well!

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (9th Oct 2024 - 19:33:42) Joe you have still dodged the question regardless of weather the land is in the park or out WHY are you against building on the land. If it can be achieved with negotiations with the park people and it’s a big if will you still be against it straight answer.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (9th Oct 2024 - 20:10:54) Russ if it helps you get to sleep over this - what I would say is if the land were totally outside of the National Park I would have no problem with them building there. I agree that the boundary being so close to Liphook has caused planning issues.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (9th Oct 2024 - 21:40:32) Well Joe more or less a straight answer. Yes I sleep well thanks. It’s just you complicated everything you would make a very good politician. Yes the boundary has made it a mess for liphook that’s exactly why the parks people should come and see what could be done to help liphook and its community not just stand back and say rules are rules it’s big brother all over again. Anyway Joe thanks for being honest you Agree that the boundary is making it very difficult that’s something.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - M (10th Oct 2024 - 08:19:45) I don't think it's the land being in the National Park that is the problem it's the boundary. As I mentioned before, both EHDC and SDNPA planners both told me that if the parish was either fully inside or outside of the National Park then the Bohunt site (and then likely the Northcott site) would be developed. Liphook has no available land inside it's settlement boundary so all new developments will need to be on green field land outside/on the edge of the settlement boundary. The SDNPA would see those two sites as sustainable locations and would grant permission. At the moment they don't recognise Liphook as a settlement within the National Park, therefore see no reason to allocate/allow new developments. It's interesting to see that the NDP Steering Group say they will come back to the NDP and allocate housing should the need arise. After EHDC and SDNPA have made their new Local Plans I'm sure there'll be no areas left to be developed.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve Bamford (10th Oct 2024 - 08:20:55) Joe, Russ I am reposting my earlier entry from 6th October, as the discussion seems to be drifting into tit for tat spats whereas, at this juncture, an overarching vision for the future of Liphook is badly needed. If we make the wrong choices now, generations ahead of us will pay this price for these errors. This is not the time for self interest, but rather we should consider how the lives of people in the village and those of future generations can be improved by appropriate development locally. The points made by the Prince's Trust are highly pertinent to this discussion and need reiterating. The Prince's Trust letter provides a clear case for an appropriate development at Bohunt Manor; one which will undoubtedly benefit the majority in Liphook, should the community and the authorities so decide to support it (as seems to be the case) It seems to me that what has been lacking is solid FUNDING to secure the building of the facilities at Bohunt Manor. These have been consented for many years but have not been progressed due to lack of funding, as Joe rightly points out. If we can overcome this funding impasse, the proposed development at Bohunt Manor be a boon to the village. Re-posted entry from 6th October: An interesting thread, especially the points debated between Russ and Joe. I think, however, the letter from the Princes Trust, unearthed by Clive, is highly pertinent and hits the nail on the head (regardless of whether that organisation was paid or otherwise) - it comes across as objective, thorough and authoritative and rings true! For me the 'killer' points in the letter are: " proximity to the village centre the railway station and local shops " and " the local conditions appear at odds with the general quality of the protected landscape " and. " The boundary has also been drawn without regard to the existing settlement pattern and the most obvious direction of growth for the village " and " Whilst undertaking the scoping study and design workshop, the Foundation inspected all the other potential development sites which have come forward to accommodate the current housing needs in the village and concluded that Bohunt Park represented the most accessible and sustainable option for the growth requirements of Liphook. and finally " ..... it is fully recognised that the local community must be fully consulted and engaged in the process it is the Foundation’s view that this scheme has the potential to create a high quality development that could set a benchmark for new village development as well as new development on the boundaries of National Parks where there is often pressure for growth " To me it is simply a 'no brainer' and, given the apparent local support for the previous planning application for this land, democracy and common sense should prevail.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (10th Oct 2024 - 09:03:12) Steve? although the letter is very fulsome in praise the business arm of the Princes trust were well paid by the developers to produce this. Also this was produced many years ago now. Please also re read the guardian article about empty promises from developers. Building in Bohunt will not prevent masses of houses elsewhere in Liphook, it is not a question any more of either or- it is a question of how many hundreds and how soon! At least voting a yes for the principles of the plan means the plan is there providing a framework to be taken notice of. Do you not realise it took 7 -8 years to get the plan to that stage? 2 seperate lots of consultants were employed as well to make sure it could not be legally challenged by a) the district council, b) the SDNPA and c) developers angry their site had not been chosen? Finally an independent planning inspector had to pass the plan. Who wants to pay for another one? As a tax payer I certainly do not.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve Bamford (10th Oct 2024 - 10:12:09) Hello Joe Thank you for your response which raises a number of interesting points but equally raises even more questions. In regards to the Prince's Trust letter you say: "the letter is very fulsome in praise the business arm of the Princes trust were well paid by the developers to produce this". Query: I would very much like to know how much the 'business arm' of the Prince's Trust was paid? Could you please let us know exactly how much they were paid, as this is something about which I may contact the Prince's Trust, as the implication seems to be that they produced a favourable report, (rather than an objective one) simply because they were paid by the developers to do so. In other words, the Prince's Trust report was prejudiced and a sham, one could use words such a 'corrupt', because they were paid to produce it. (As an aside, it is interesting that you acknowledge that the Prince's Trust offers "fulsome praise" - your words - of the suitability of the Bohunt Manor land for development) Please let me know how much Trust was paid? You say: "Also this was produced many years ago now:" Query: Please explain how this is relevant? (my view is that the Prince's Trust report has never been more relevant!) The threat of massive development has been hanging over us for many years and, by your own admission, is likely to get worse - your point: "Building in Bohunt will not prevent masses of houses elsewhere in Liphook, it is not a question any more of either or- it is a question of how many hundreds and how soon!" Surely, therefore, it is critical that the right development is located in the right place? Hypothetical Question: Putting aside the National Park designation, do you agree (as the Prince's Trust clearly does) that Bohunt Manor is the best location for Liphook's expansion: (no flimflamming please, this is simply a hypothetical question - your 'get out of jail card', so to speak so a straight, direct answer only, please!)

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Simon (10th Oct 2024 - 10:22:41) Thank you agreeing Truth Thank you Trevor for your last word. On this thread of over 80 comments, I am quite surprised that there is very little, either of promotion or otherwise, from those more intimately involved in the plan in recent times, nor the Parish Council.. I have decided. I gave my understanding of what constitues a plan and shall not vote for a plan that isn't one.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Russ (10th Oct 2024 - 10:27:28) Well as said a complete mess caused by the short sighted national parks not consulting the community and more to the point NOT listening. What a situation it’s the most appropriate place to put our allocation of housing the majority of the community agree but it can’t be developed because it’s in the national park but if it was out no problem and if liphook was fully in no problem what a stupid system. Someone should take both sides and knock their heads together as they say.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve miller (10th Oct 2024 - 11:16:44) Joe The question about whether allowing development on the Bohunt /Northcott land would bring with it additional infrastructure is rather beside the point. Liphook already has an established infrastructure of schools, shops, Doctors surgeries, station etc albeit that improvements are clearly necessary as the village expands (which it will!) Surely it makes sense that any additional housing is sited in a way that makes best use of existing facilities rather than putting families at ever increasing distances from them thereby increasing reliance of car usage in the absence of realistic public transport provision. I would contend that had the national park boundary been put in a more rational place, EHDC would have long ago earmarked these fields as suitable to accommodate their requirements for new housing.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (10th Oct 2024 - 11:28:26) Making certain people have also noted the objections to the NP by housing developers: www.easthants.gov.uk/media/9339/download?inline

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve Bamford (10th Oct 2024 - 12:13:50) In reference to the discussions about the Prince's Foundation (who produced the favourable report on the suitability of Bohunt Manor for development to accommodate the expansion needs in Liphook) I have done some limited research, some of which is copy - pasted below. It turns out it is indeed a charity - Charity Number 1069969 "Activities - how the charity spends its money The mission of the Prince's Foundation for Building Community is to transforms lives by creating beautiful, harmonious and sustainable communities. We do this through our extensive education programme, by enabling exemplar projects that demonstrate best practice around the world and championing key principles for the development and regeneration of communities."

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Joe (10th Oct 2024 - 12:43:27) It would be impossible to find out that information Steve about how much any consultant is paid? They set up collaborations whereby their name is used for collaborations all the time in return for donations? It was part of the Kevin McCloud tie in? Why on earth otherwise would a charity set up to support young people in business start ups suddenly be writing letters like that out of the blue? There was a huge scandal some years back where an Arab businessman donated bagfuls of cash to the trust in return for a meeting with the then Prince Charles. www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/police-ends-probe-into-king-charles-s-charity-over-cash-for-honours-claims

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Old resident (10th Oct 2024 - 13:43:20) Looking through this thread it’s quite obvious where people want new homes. But Joe comes back every time with objections but he never says where he would like housing put when we have to have them which we will.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve Bamford (10th Oct 2024 - 13:49:58) Hello Joe I was was hoping for a fact-based reply rather than speculative assumptions and irrelevant, distracting red-herrings Never mind..............

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (10th Oct 2024 - 14:49:42) One thing that is intriguing me is, who is Joe ? Considering I had not put my full name on this thread and to which he/she has named me, they obviously know who I am. I am at a disadvantage then. Judging by his/her posts they are against particular developments in Liphook and makes that point in his posts. Could this be someone who has a stake in the game with other possible developments ? As I have been to past meetings on developments perhaps they know me from there ? Russ has asked why he is against that development, I also wonder. The chicken farm and 600 houses on Highfield would be utter madness and mayhem for Liphook. So Joe, where is a good place?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Martin Barry (10th Oct 2024 - 20:35:56) Well put Alison. Joe, it would add to your credibility if you enlightened us.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - D (11th Oct 2024 - 08:43:39) AR, same thing happened to me. Someone called "Joe" knew my real name. Not a problem, but if it is possible to find someone's name on this website, what else can be gleaned? I've viewed websites such as this in a negative light since. So, Joe, how did you find my real name?

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (11th Oct 2024 - 12:01:39) Interesting thread. So I used a commercial LLM to review the thread, looking for speech patterns and other information that could narrow down who Joe is. Here are some extract's - it may help others figure it out (seeing as how Joe likes to dox people here): Background: Likely in their 60s or 70s, Joe has lived in Liphook for nearly 40 years. They demonstrate knowledge of planning policies, especially those related to National Parks, and hint at connections with local councils—possibly through friends or past involvement in civic roles. Joe references specific planning applications and regulatory frameworks, suggesting either professional experience or long-standing personal interest in local planning matters. Stance on Development: Joe opposes development on the Bohunt Manor land, citing its location within the South Downs National Park and the associated restrictions. They have consistently argued against this development, without frequently suggesting alternative sites for new housing. Community Role and Influence: Joe is familiar with several community members, addressing them by name, which implies that they may attend local meetings or know local residents personally. However, Joe maintains their own anonymity, even as they identify others. This may indicate a desire to influence discussions without revealing any potential vested interests or connections. Possible Links to Councils and Authorities: Joe’s posts often reference insights that suggest a deeper awareness of local government processes and planning regulations. They claim to have friends working within local authorities, and their posts sometimes reflect knowledge that might be accessible only to those with close ties to council activities or experience in planning matters. Communication Style: Joe’s responses are detailed and often provide historical context, which could indicate a history of involvement in local planning or a personal archive of past decisions and reports. They tend to focus on procedural aspects of planning and avoid directly engaging with suggestions for alternative development sites. BTW Joe - if and when you reply, I can add your responses to the training model and help narrow it down further :)

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (11th Oct 2024 - 12:12:31) And finally .... Likely Role Background Given the level of detail in his comments and a balanced, non-partisan approach, Joe might be likeliest to have worked as a policy analyst, urban planner, real estate advisor, or educator. These roles would fit his knowledge of legislative structures, public policy impacts, and community planning intricacies. Joe could have been in any of these fields directly or served as an advisor or consultant. How are we doing Joe?!

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Truth (11th Oct 2024 - 12:16:52) Annnnnnndddddd .... ! Linking my LLM model to a simple Google and LinkedIn search, I've narrowed down who I believe 'Joe' is .... ! And I know them indirectly. I will not dox them here, that would not be ethical.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (11th Oct 2024 - 12:41:25) Truth. Very detailed and observant analysis of Joe. Either he knows me or has trawled through historic posts to find out who I am. Neither matters, at it proves I have no skin in the game and shows that I am an old liphook resident that has this villages best decisions at heart. Joe I feel is the opposite and as Truth has pointed out seems very clued up on the intricacies of council, neighbourhood planning or dealing in planning. The right decisions for Liphook have been blatantly ignored for years and woeful decisions like building further West alongside the A3 causing more traffic onto the Longmoor road into Liphook seem ludicrous. As for the vote on the Neighbourhood Plan, well I cannot for the life of me see the point.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - M (11th Oct 2024 - 17:48:21) Gosh this is getting fun! Are we saying "Joe" is definitely a "He" or possibly a "She" ????

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Ricardo (12th Oct 2024 - 08:24:44) After taking the time to read the proposed plan it is a definite “NO” from me. The EHDC + local council must take us for mugs as there’s no proper plan being proposed, it is merely a smoke screen with mirrors included to mislead and deceive the people of Liphook into allowing greedy developers to do what and when they want to our village. Also need to point out the obvious now in that the local council is not fit for purpose and need to step aside after allowing this to get this far. The council openly promote and allow developers to produce brochures and distribute them on their behalf as though they were local council/ government created, dummy is the appropriate word for these people.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - D (12th Oct 2024 - 09:15:34) My guess is Joe is in I.T. and probably has been since the dawn of the internet in 1974. He/she has the ability to find people's identity on an anonymous website.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - AR (12th Oct 2024 - 10:09:57) He/She Joe is also a magician. They have disappeared in a puff of smoke.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - paul (13th Oct 2024 - 17:53:00) Hi, We are now receiving Postal Votes of this Referendum of the future "Building". Have you ever voted on something that is a local government farce? I agree in voting, but for what? Smoke and Mirrors, for some peoples in local official jobs? Nice to know our ever increasing Council payments, are put to good use? We as a paying community, need to do something before our future paying local bills are just not fare. We are driven roughshod when living in our own village.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - er (13th Oct 2024 - 19:26:50) A while ago I had a quick look to see how much these developer contributions are worth, to see what the community would be getting in return for helping the government and presumably the developers by finding them big development sites. From what I can recall we got £20,000 last year, 200,000 the year before and £300,000 before that. Also £90,000 from the old Allianz commercial site (approx) which went (is going) on a new board walk for Radford Park. So if we had the neighbourhood plan for more development in place we would have earned an extra 10% of total allocation, about £300,000, which sounds like a lot of money till you realise we a growing town and really this is small money in those terms over a three year period, especially with all the big developments we've had, we're talking new benches, the odd boardwalk, flowerbed or at a stretch a new swing or slide, rather than the doctor's surgeries, recreation centres, bypasses, schools etc that we're going to need which cost millions. And that's with all these huge new estates going up. PS sorry can't find the minutes that I read these on, if anyone can help me out I'd appreciate it, so these figures just from memory, may be a bit out.

Re: Referendum on the Neighbourhood Plan for Bramshott and Liphook - Steve miller (14th Oct 2024 - 10:01:28) There appears to be some misunderstanding about the principle and application of developer contributions. The link below is quite useful for anyone interested. gov.uk/guidance/planning-obligations

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